S.4 E.33 -House of Wolves, Purity Culture, Offering children, leaving.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to bless child podcast. This is your host Renee. Also known as Ren robot. This is season four. I know. How did we get here? We're in season four. We're on episode 33. And if you've been listening to this. Podcasts then, you know, that we've been growing together. And the reason it's season four is because I am retiring an old internal belief system.

One that I have had a really hard time abandoning. And that is the idea that I do not ask for support. So here I am breaking old habits and healing simultaneously with my listener. I am going to ask you for support, please. If you enjoy listening to the Blessed child podcast. Go to the link below to my Patrion and contribute whatever you can.

The contributions you make help me. With research. Outreach audio engineering. With subscriptions to support the podcast as well as artwork. And so much more.

And that being said, I have dreams for season four and I have paired with a previous guests. Their name is kale. They've reached out to me and offered to help code transcriptions.

With the new Patreons that I have, I am going to be transcribing each episode. And kale will be helping me code them. What is coding? Exactly. Basically when you go on Google and you type in human trafficking. If the transcriptions are coded. It's more likely that a researcher or investigator or anyone just looking up.

Trafficking we'll find one of our episodes. So basically it's going to help contribute to qualitative research. And that is the big dream for the next few years is that we contribute to qualitative research and real change because you can't have change. If you can't measure something.

In order to make improvements, there has to be measurements in order for there to be improvements in X Mooney community. There needs to be language. So we're doing that. That's a longterm goal. Another long-term goal is to possibly get a website. So if there's any of you out there, listeners that are passionate about making websites, maybe we can get together for a longterm goal of creating a blessed child podcast website, somewhere where the transcriptions can be safe and easily searched.

So yeah, if you have any information or feedback for me, any advice or suggestions, uh,join the Patrion, we can have private conversations. Plenty of it. . Anyways, that's why we're in season four. Let's get into the episode with Gary and an old friend from Bridgeport hope school, who I knew as a young child. , Trigger warning for purity culture. The concept of offering children.

And. How to come out of the unification church. Here we go.

So welcome to the show. Is it Gary and or green? Because

I remember calling you Garien in, you know, what's funny is I've just been called like two of those names, my entire life that I just kinda don't care.

Like I've had two of my closest friends say it differently. I've never corrected them. So either, or as long as you got the good and the eon, then I'm all fine. Okay. Well, I called you Gary and you were this adorable little blonde boy running around in the basement of BHS in Bridgeport, Connecticut at Bridgeport hope school.

Um, I babysat you a few times, like when I shouldn't, oh yeah. I should not have been watching all like six children that lived on the first floor of BHS, but they were like, oh Ryan, you're like 10, you'll be fine.

That's really funny. I I'm, uh, I must've been too young to remember that. Oh yeah. You were like four years old. You were so cute. You were like four years old. Yeah. You were just learning how to talk and run and more four or five years, something like that. I heard it was a crazy kid. You were adorable. I, from what I remember, um, I think your dad got overwhelmed at sometimes, but he was, he, from what I remember, he was alone raising you on the first floor.

Is that right? Yep. That's true. Uh, till I was 18 and just me and him pretty much in that apartment, I wanted to be I after VHS and it was just pretty cool. Just kind of like living in the same building as my school. Like I just think thinking like an elevator ride down to a nice school. That was the easiest thing ever.

Oh, right. Cause BIA moved into the same building, the Lafayette building right there, the second floor. Okay. Okay. So we're all we're talking about. The Bridgeport compound, everybody else is going to go right over their heads. I guess we should start from the beginning that there was a, there was like a cult school for the unification church started in Bridgeport, um, multiple schools.

This is like the educational epicenter of the moon new verse in America. There is Bridgeport international academy, which was previously new Eden academy. Then there was Bridgeport homeschool, which I think is still Bridgeport. Yep. Which is an elementary school in the basement of the Lafayette building.

And then there is, um, UV university of Bridgeport, which offers scholarships for like Mooney scholarships. Yeah. I think they lost a UV recently or something wonderful. Um, but yeah, it's true. You're actually teaching me a little bit. I don't even know like how far spread we are, like in the us, like my whole role was just Connecticut, but then like, I've heard, like I actually went after I graduated college, I went to like a little, have you heard of Hearst?

Yes. The hearse house. Oh my gosh. This is bringing back memories. Where was this? Can you tell me about this? Because I remember this. It's in Berkeley, California. That's right. Um, so it's just kind of crazy that we have, like, from one end Vos to the other, like there's all these influences that I didn't even know about, you know, we're really spread out.

Yeah. Yeah. The Hearst house has a long history. I hope somebody can come on here, but I think it was part of like the brainwashing in the seventies. I want to say, where the workshops were. I want to say, but I'm not a hundred percent certain, but I think it's been in the family quote unquote, in our family for a long time.

Um, anyways, that's where another conversation. So Darien, we kind of set where we met. Um, you reached out, you left a voice memo on the blessed child podcast. I was so honored to like, hear your voice. And then I saw your name and I was like Gary and Vermeer, Gary and Ramirez. Like I know this guy and then you left your phone number and it had the area code for Bridgeport.

And I was like, this dude has the same area code I have. I remember you. That's really funny. Yeah. I like, I recently starting to leave the cults. Um, and one of the, you know, my sister has been a really big influence on helping me get out of that. Um, and I was just wondering if she had needed like suggestions for podcasts and she suggested your guys' show.

And the first episode I saw, like, um, I forget, sorry. I'm not like the other podcasts or something. I don't know if someone, um, was like, Um, if there's any men out there, you know, part of the unification is church. Just message us. And I was like, okay, I'll take that as a sign. I wasn't really shy about it, but then you guys are just literally calling out like, Hey guys, on podcasts, go ahead.

Um, so I took it as. Thank God. Right? Right. Yeah. We fall into old patterns. Don't wait. I love that. Yeah, totally know. Uh, yeah. I always was on edge, like waiting for a sign as like a young Mooney. We were conditioned for that. So, you know what I'm going to take. I'm going to take advantage of that and be like, this is your sign, everybody listening.

I heard like, um, counting, like the number seven was like a big thing. It's a God's number, like silly signs and 40 like 40 days in the desert with yeah. And then, yeah, we did a lot of blood biblical things. Um, seven. Okay. So do I need to say it seven times before somebody, if you want more like X needs to say.

Yeah, exactly. And it's like you break number. Got it. Okay, cool. Okay. So I was going to ask you. Did you go to STS? Okay. So my oldest brother did STF in America. Um, my other two brothers did STF in America, in Europe. I actually wanted to do something different because I saw a lot of like abuse. Um, just specifically one of my brothers, um, he got his, his team got into an accident and one of the kids died and I know.

Yeah. And I didn't see any accountability and I didn't see any. I didn't, it was, it was a red flag. Um, so, so I was like, I need to do something different. So basically OLT in Australia. Same thing. Same concept. Still dangerous. Yeah, definitely. Um, I just had a quick, funny story about like the number seven and basically my sister left the call and she's been a huge influence on me and another.

They did a lot of dangerous shit. Like, um, people were like passing out while driving often. Um, she, she wanted this like mission where they just told her, like go through the woods and they got lost at one point, which they could have just stayed lost. Um, thankfully they think that it's on the way back, but like when they were going down this trail, and even though she doesn't believe in like the culprit anymore at all, but there's like these like dumb things that you felt like were signs from God.

Um, They didn't know if they're going the right path down the trail. And then once this one sister, sorry, a church member, uh, it was just like, let's just go for seven more minutes. I think it will be the right way she did that. It actually bounced me. They found the path that it's like, whoa, you know, like that, it's more like confirmation bias on like absolutely psychotic things.

Yeah. That's the way our parents thought, like that's how my dad drove. Like, that's how he found me in like, oh, I could tell you stories. Yes. I understand that. Thinking magical thinking. Um, but yeah, it's nice here. Um, I'm glad you didn't go. I I'm sorry. Uh, I'm I'm just more curious about your life. Maybe to some degree it's more about me.

Okay. And escalate. You've got seven minutes, seven. I was just going to ask about what was like your first turning point outside of this call. Like what made you kind of break? Okay. That's such a good question. I think from the time I was born, like you were there's. I want to say my brain was split into two.

Very like, literally there was like my critical thinking part that could see that this shit was fucked up. And then there was this like primal part that was like, it doesn't matter how fucked up it is. You're going to stay because this is the only thing, you know? So like little things would just trigger me.

Like when Reverend moon accidentally matched two men together and then started blaming like the men's spirit world. Like you're oh my God. Yes. Um, that was when I was 12. That was when I made up the mind. Like, I am not going to let that motherfucker pick my spouse. Cause he obviously doesn't know what he's doing.

Um, that was when I was 12 didn't matter. I still got matched. Uh, I found him myself, but I still got matched. Um, and just little things like that. So I think it, I think from the beginning I was like seeing through things, but it didn't matter. Like I have it in my journal. Like I understand the movement. I don't understand.

Like, I don't believe Reverend moon, like quote-on-quote I wrote, I don't believe Reverend moon, but I understand the movement. And I think that's like, so profoundly insightful. It's like, it doesn't matter. Um, the movement was powerful enough to keep you in it. Yeah, that's interesting. Cause I, um, I would say my, my experience is pretty similar, um, right around when I went to college, but I always had like hard time, like explaining it to myself because again, I stopped believing in it too, and I always like rebelled against it, but also I believe that at the same time it was like this crazy.

Like my actions were completely following all of it, but I personally just like felt against it. Um, I never knew how to like explain that to myself. Really. It's just, I don't know. I think one part of it is they kind of make God kind of like this. I remember when I was in college, when I was first, my first, my first like doubting was, it had nothing to do with a call.

I just was like, I listened to a song that made me. Um, it was like a very anti religion song and it was so angry and it like really awakened these feelings in me of like, I'm so fucking angry at this, the way I grew up. Um, but then like, I felt like if I wanted to stop being religious or something in the call, I'd have to like, Stop believing in God.

And then I imagined for a second, what it's like to being an atheist is like, what if God didn't exist? There was like the most painful world ever. There was no meaning to anything. Like there's no one above my head is protecting me, but it's just like, you know, and it was like, that's what kind of kept me in.

I was like, oh, like, I can't be an atheist. It's just so painful for me. So I'm just going to stay in, follow whatever they do. You know, I think there's this like, This explanation that I fell upon, which is called, like doubling down is basically when you've invested so much of your life into a bad investment.

Instead of like being like, okay, I was wrong. Like I fucked up. Um, you'll be like, okay, all or nothing, like all or another motherfucker. Like I'm either going to get into heaven with my entire family. And my lineage is going to be awesome. Or like none of this means anything. And I just can't choose that.

So like you double down, you double down. I did two. I mean, I'm impressed that you even like, started to see the bullshit at 12 years old. I don't know, but I did it, it didn't matter. It didn't matter. I was still like, it's still like separated my personality. Like there would be that part of me that was like, all right, everybody wake up at six, am you stupid motherfuckers?

We got to do it. Okay. And then this other part of me was like, no, I just want to like, steal some alcohol and drink. Like, let's all go have fun. Yeah. I think, um, part of it was like doubling down for a long time. But, um, now that I'm like in therapy and I kinda like have these like, ways of thinking about like my life and a big part of it is really like.

If I were to go any other direction, that isn't the direction that they want me to get matched. Um, you know, don't have sex, like all these things. Then I just had this fear that it's, you know, everything's gonna be like, fuck somehow. Like, I think the word like fallen, like describing everything else, or is like falling except this small community, you know?

And it's like, I just assume, like, I don't know the word fall in like that word when I hear it. I just imagine like chaos and instability, there's no values, you know? And it's like, if I even take like a step towards that, I'm already like, down that. There's nothing I can do. I want to like hone in on the word that you were just like, I want, like, you assume that that's going to happen.

And I want to just like validate that actually we were told for hours that, that if we made a choice that wasn't in line with like Reverend moon's vision, like that's exactly. We were going to hell. We were doing all of our lineage. We were, we were making a bad choice. We were wasting our parents' sacrifice.

Like it's not something, it was conditioned like these, these like weird foggy memories and weird like invisible chains of like psychological manipulation were actually very well planted in us. Um, and it seems so crazy for me. I'm still untangling. I'm like, no, that really happened. Like, somebody really sat me down as a six-year-old and told me that I couldn't be friends with boys or I was going to do my like entire lineage.

Um, yeah, my God, that's like a lot for a six year old to handle. Yeah, it is. And yeah, it totally messed messed with me. Like at a young age, we were hearing like, you can't wear this, you can't do that. Like your entire life choices. It's not a, there's no play. Everything is high stakes. Like, like HK said in one of my previous episodes, like you can't develop as a healthy human being.

If you can't play. Damn. That's that's, that's a good point. I never really thought of it like that. Yeah. I there's like so many, like things that, you know, my therapist and all these people were telling me like that are normal. It's like, oh, it's normal to like, have these feelings to like, want sex to, you know, explore your life.

And it's just like, oh really? I thought that was really just like, oh, that's she seems like other kids are allowed to do that, but like, or fallen kids are allowed to do that, but not me, you know, I have like a mission or. Like your purpose and like all this like shitty things, you're special. I'm sure the unification church has a PowerPoint on every, like every step of human development.

That's like some type of controlling PowerPoint. Um, but, uh, but, but I really wanted to hone in on that song. Cause you're one of the first people that said you had a song. I have a song too. So I want to share like that song that like made you feel like you could get out and angry. I have a to go for it.

No, you tell me yours first. Um, any, if there's any bring me the horizon fans listening. Um, it's it's called the house of wolves and bring me the horizon and the verses are really powerful to be, uh, or it's just like show me a sign. Show me your reason to give a solitary fuck about your goddamn beliefs.

It's just like, there's so much passion. I think it was just like, you know, why am I, I don't know. It just totally unlocked these feelings of like, wanting to putting so much effort into somebody else's beliefs, you know? Um, so yeah, it really, it really shook me up. And then also, um, in the call, you know, there's always this talk about the kingdom, um, like the kingdom of heaven and all these things.

And the song does, it's like a very nihilistic, atheist, uh, perspective, and it's like such a bad-ass line to me. Or it's like, when you die, the only kingdom you'll see. It's a two foot wide and six foot deep. So it's like metal, but it's like such a fuck you to, you know, like that's just a magic. Imagine me singing that to like a first gen feels so badass to me.

Um, yeah. And I was actually, I had this fantasy of like singing that song on my wedding day. As like, imagine you may get a getting like matched to somebody just like dating somebody outside of the calls. And like, you know, of course my parents, my dad's going to be like, so disappointed that she's not a cult member, but then I'll sing that song and be like, fuck you don't get married anyway.

Um, so I love it. Um, yeah. Okay. That's a great song. Everybody go listen to it. It's um, the house of wolves bring me the horizon, right. Is that right? Okay, great scream on song. Lots of energy. Perfect song. Okay. Mine's a little more mellow. I thought it was hardcore until I heard your fucking breakouts on. Um, so, so mine was, uh, me and my step mom who adopted me when I was 12, I was living with her and I had just come back from Korea and lived with her.

And we were always getting in arguments, like theological debates. I was like, this is bullshit. Like, why are we doing this? And we would get brought to church and I fucking hated it, but like I did it anyway. Cause that's all I had. Right. So one day we were arguing, we were arguing about yeah. Theology and.

Like open your phone, open your eyes. Like, why should I do this? And the killer's song came on and she was like, yeah, she was like, Renee, why do you feel this? Like, what do you feel like, what do you really believe? And at that moment, the lyrics just tuned into my brain. And like, it was like a hypnotic moment and it was like, I've got soul, but I'm not a soul.

I got soul, but I'm not a soldier. And I was like, I looked at her and she looked at me and we, we had a moment of clarity. I'm not a fucking soldier. Yeah. Like, cause like that's what they called us. Heavenly soldier. Yeah. Absolutely. That's fucking awesome. That's like such a great build up to that at the end too.

So I totally see that hyping you up. Yeah. It hype me up and I was in the driver. I was driving the Jeep and I looked at her and like when that lyric kid, I looked at her and I was like, there's nothing left to say like, this is it. Like I understand the movement, but I don't believe like I've got soul, but I'm not your fucking pawn.

Yeah. That's awesome. I can't believe you had that. Yeah. I'm so glad we had that song. I guess that's like a really pivotal moment. Music is so powerful. I have, I've had so many like powerful, like revelations about like how my day life is like affected by just always trying to please some God, or, you know, in some way, like, it's not, it's not even like, I'm actively thinking about doing it, I'm just doing it.

Um, and I, I, I don't know, Eastern relation of like somebody telling you, you don't have to do this. It's just so powerful to me. Like, I'll just like my, either a therapy session recently. Um, we're I dunno, we were just talking about, like, I was like wondering, she kept asking, like, what, how would you like to live your life?

Um, and I said, I would like to live at like this, but I don't know if it's like evil. Like, I don't know if that's an evil, you know, I just imagined this other authority figure, looking at me. Um, and like judging me if I'm like, not if I'm like happy doing what I'm doing. Um, so I, I kept telling her, like, you're not allowed to do this.

And she was like, no, I'm not like your authority figure. Like, why should I be to here? And like, then who is my, um, it was just such an interesting, like thing when I realized that I'm my authority figure, you know, like I'm the one who decides how I want to look at life. Um, I don't know. That's just like one step closer to being a normal person, I guess.

I don't know. I have some insight on that and I think it's linked to your education. Um, you went to BHS, you went to BIA, you graduated via. Yeah. Okay. So something I know. Yeah. Thank God. Okay. So I want to tap in on something that I noticed in my own life that might be what's going on in your life. When I went to BHS and BIA, I felt like I was conditioned to be a yes, man.

I didn't feel like I was educated to have critical thought and to debate. I thought debate was arguing. And so I found a lot. I would conform to whoever the authority figure was. And I feel like that was part of the education system. I don't know if that's totally off, but that's what I noticed in BHS. Is that something you might have noticed?

I, I don't really, I think the biggest thing that kind of keeps me trapped in like the cycle of like, you know, um, like, I don't know, like there's a cult thing. I watched this Regan recent documentary and I call it the called Nexium. Have you heard of that one? Yeah, there's a really great documentary on HBO about it.

Uh, but one thing that I learned from there is that if you brainwash your cult members enough, they're just eventually going to do it themselves. I feel like that's kind of what I'm struggling with is like, what is this thing? That's just brainwashed, continuing the brainwashing on myself every single day.

Um, and how it kind of like combat that. And I think the one thing that stands out to me is like, the reason why I keep doing it. I wouldn't say it's the education system. Um, I don't know. I just had like these really bad abandonment issues. Um, I mean, it makes sense thinking about my childhood, where I was an offering kid.

Um, I don't know if we've defined that yet or if he wants to, we can totally go there. Um, yeah, I think that's, that's a really big thing with my life. So an offering kid is who those are listening. Don't know what that is. Um, I think I'm not too sure about like the, what was actually taught by the unification church about it.

I just was told that from my biological parents and my adoptive parents, um, is that like, it was kind of seen as a great honor. If one cult member was like unable to have children or start a family that you give up your own. Um, and that's all I know. I'm not really sure, like what exactly, you know, Reverend moon taught about.

No offering her kit up. But yeah, my biological dad, so basically it's adopted I'm it out there. I'm able to get that. I went out to my adoptive dad or I was like, you don't have any kids yet. It's like, yeah, we're just not able to have it. And then they talked about it and my biological mom, like ha you know, prayed to God and God answered.

And so that it would be a great thing for her to give me away, from one family to another. , and yeah, so I was adopted from that. , my bio of my adoptive mother passed away and it was like three or four. , so there is definitely just a lot of abandonment issues from those two things. And I think like whenever I'm thinking about, you know, possibly doing something that is in line with the Colts beliefs, I'm kind of equaling that to like, I'm going to be too weird or too out there to really like, be loved or accepted.

And I think that's kind of like that idea in my head of like, whatever I become, whatever I do, that's not really in line equals me being unlovable. So I think that's like the biggest thing that really got me. It's definitely more than my education. Yeah, I know that's layered. I can relate to that. I've seen that on fold.

I remember you. Yeah. Just being with your dad. And, I remember seeing pictures of your adopted mom in your apartment. I know creepy memories. I'm sorry. It feels like I'm like, this is inception, right? I think I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah.

I'm sorry. You can finish your thought. Yeah. Like something that I've been piecing together after talking to a few offering children, is that there was no protocol. Like you're an offering child and you still don't, it's vague. Like it was so vague and unstructured and unsafe and really just off like unhinged, just giving children away.

Yeah. I've yeah. I've heard some crazy, like one it's cool. Cause like, I feel like we should start a club. I mean the offering kids, like your Facebook group share stories, open invite to all the offering children, Gary, and has a great idea. I think it would be an amazing support group. It is such an odd niche of like abuse and abandonment, like go for it.

Definitely. Um, and yeah, like, yeah, I've heard this one story about like a close or just another offering kid who like they were like talking about it within their couple of. Again, , my biological parents, like towards me being more and it was like such a hard decision. Um, and it's, it's heartbreaking to think that they were like brainwashed into doing it.

Um, cause there's definitely a part of themselves that didn't want to. Um, and when they did give me a way, like a lot of my family members, my biological side were like really angry at like, you know, giving me away. But another family, like no offering kid, like they were like on the fence, says like the baby who's about to be born.

And , then her adoptive parents just took her, just fucking took her and then moved away like really far away from where they were. And it was like, holy shit, like that is so fucked up. Like, I don't know what the environment was with first gen, like if, how, what they were taught around offering kids. But it's just so fucking, it's so bad.

Like, I really want to know exactly what Reverend Laura was telling them how to make some shit like that seem okay. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's that's like institutionalized kidnapping and like severe gaslighting from the entire community. Like, this is okay, this is the course. This is what is it like, like you just fucking stole my child.

Like, I wasn't even like, there's no pro like what's. Um, and I want to say like, if it's going to emulate Reverend moon's like behavior, he did the same thing with Sam park. Like his, his son, he choice like, baby. I, I hope I got that. All right. But like he raped a minor.

. It was any choice. Then she had Sam and then he stole Sam from Annie and gave him to Bohemia. To race as an offering child. And it was like his illegitimate child.

But I think that's correct. That's like what happened? I feel like that was the establishment of like offering children, like just stealing children to cover your own ass for your infidelity. And I mean, that's what he did. He, he S he disowned Sam. He was like, that's not my kid. That's Bowie's kid that that's bogey pox kid.

Um, I don't know where that kid came from. He just like snuck him into that family. That's the first case of offering children that I'm aware of, man may have maybe there is something that I were, I dunno. I just, I want to know, like specifically, I should definitely ask, like some first know about like what he was teaching about it.

Like why, how he kind of spun it to make it seem like something like, so. Glorified, you know, like giveaway away your kid I've heard, it was like a ticket to heaven. Like every family has to have a true child, like a blessed child to like complete the position foundation of like conjugal love, parental love.

And like, you can't do that if you don't have a child that's pure lineage. So I mean, make all the families complete, but I mean, that could just be some narcissist bullshit to cover his own ass for what he did. Yeah, definitely. I can definitely see it like that. Um, but yeah, just growing up, it's, it's a really, the sibling aspect is something that I'm starting to really, I just moved to, live with my siblings.

Um, I spent like a year of that my dad and I thought it'd be fine. But if you living with just a first gen for a year and no friends at all to hang out with, it was just like the most lonely time ever. So I'm kind of coming out of like that with, meeting my uniting with my siblings and living around them.

I'm currently living with my sister. , but yeah, having siblings that are a hundred percent biological that you haven't grown up with, it's just such a crazy experience. Definitely like most wild part of that. Yeah, look, I mean, would you want to explore that? Because I, I think there's a lot of offering children out there listening and, it's a really hard place to navigate.

Like, it's, it's like your, your boat's been shot out in the middle of the ocean. Like what, how, how did you reach out to your family? How did they know where you were? Like, how did they accept you? Like, that's all really interesting information if you're okay with sharing that. Oh yeah, of course. , thankfully one thing, like, you know, I, I still have a good relationship with my dad and like, despite him being a first gen and, you know, bringing me up in the environment that he did, he still, he didn't hide me from my offering siblings at all.

If he did, I think I would hold so much resentment, but now he, you know, like every summer I would visit them. Well, not like every summer, but every couple of summers, like every four or five years. , I would like visit them when I was young and there was like some pretty large gaps. Like I, I was in them once when I was four and then I kinda like, knew about their existence, but didn't really think about it that much.

And I met my sister in the funniest way possible. , you ever love in life? Oh yeah. Oh God, what happened? , so 11 life, um, was really cool for a Mooney, at least for me, because, well, it's like, it was like the biggest church event ever. And so like a lot of people from all over the U S would go there and a lot of like friends you haven't seen in forever, it would be there.

And it's like exciting to go there. Cause you never know which old friend you're going to see. And, so I was at love and life and , you know, Being an, an offering kid, you have really large families. And so my dad would insurers, some family member all the time and he'd be like, do you know who this is?

Like, she held you as a baby. , and I just get that all the time. And my default answer would just be like, ah, she's my aunt. Cause he has like a lot of sensors. So it usually works out. , but he, he brought up this young white woman, , in front of me and he was like, do you know who this is? I was like my aunt.

And she was like, no, it's your sister. And I'm like, what? It was like those crazy stories. I was like 14. , yeah. And then from my sister's perspective, she didn't like, we didn't plan this out at all. , she was on STS. And, um, she was in love in life. And then she saw just me walking down the middle aisle and she immediately knew that we were siblings.

Like she could just tell, like I have two younger brothers, so it's like, she could probably see the resemblance between the two of us. He's like, oh my God, that's my brother. And then, so she went up to say hi, and that like really sparked my interest and really reconnecting with them. , because yeah, I just was like, oh my God, I have siblings.

Like, I never really knew what it was like, like, I, I didn't, I thought they were just like distant cousins for awhile. But when you really like meet your siblings, you know, like all dumped to remember them, it's like such a, like, wow, I really want to explore this part of my family. , and you get this incredible, like, feeling of like missing out when you're not with your siblings initially, like it's so fucking painful.

, but my dad, you know, again, to his credit, he didn't want me to feel alone being an offering kids. So my best friend. It's an offering kit too. So I think they kind of like the two, you know, they knew each other from the church, like, oh, you have an African kid too. Yeah. And then they purposely like connected us and now we're, we're just best friends ever since we knew each other.

, but yeah, he was telling me like, , when I kept obsessing over it, like I need to be like siblings, siblings. And he was like, oh yeah, that thing's don't even do anymore because he experienced the same thing. , yeah. So that's, that was the first initial connection. Wow. And your sister was on SCF and she like approached you.

Yeah. That's yeah. It's beautiful. And then she could, yeah, she could do that. Then she could like pinpoint who you were out of like a crowd of a hundred people. Yeah. It's pretty crazy. Like, I didn't know. It was like that, like for years I thought they had texted or something saying, oh, your Guerin's coming.

It's like, They both plan it out. And then that's why my dad introduced me to her, but it turns out that she had just smiled, which is pretty cool. We also have very similar facial features that does help. Okay. Here's the funny part, you probably thought it was spirit world.

Yeah. Yeah, I think, , there's every coincidence in my life. I totally was like, , I, I never thought of it like spirit world. I'd always, I had this like dumb idea that like, if something good happened in my life, God is sending me a message like directly, like it created such a toxic relationship because okay.

So more trauma dumping and that's okay. , yeah, let's do it. , so my adoptive mother passed away and I was four and I think it was like eight years old. , I just had this dream. An old man with like a long white beard and a cane came up from this portal and he was like, if you don't do what I say, I'm going to take your dad to left.

He left back in the portal. , and I ever since that dream, I was like, oh my God, I got to do what he says. And I was just obsessed with getting like messages from God. , so the way I would kind of see is through coincidences. And if something coincidentally bad happened to me, then God is saying, you're fucking, you're fucking up.

There's something Quinn's still in good habits. And it's like, God's being like, oh, you're good. You're doing a good job. And I thought of like that for like years and years and years. , I mean, that's, , can I just say that's exactly how I operated on STF? Like that was the mindset, like, let God show you like with people and their choices and direction.

And like, it pushed me to the brink of a psychotic, like mentality, like a psychotic break. , just because. Oh man. , yeah, and living like that. And like another thing, like with this mindset kind of like branched off into different things where I imagine I would go to heaven and someone would like kind of checklist, like every shitty thing I've done.

And like, so like pay me like incredible. Like I would just be so like aware of my actions all the time. Like I remember I did like a nice thing for somebody and then I wouldn't think of it like, oh, I feel good because I did a nice thing. I would think like, do you see that God? Like I did something good.

You can add that to the list. Like, it was never about me anymore. , and I would also like, since like being matched is like the ultimate goal of your whole existence is to get matched. I would also think about like, everything I'm doing currently when my future wife, it, I told her, so I would like kept like a list of every single action I was doing.

Like, it was just like in my head, like constantly. You know, checking myself and just like all this bullshit. And like, I was never like fully in the present. I was just always like, who's going to approve this, you know, like finding an authority figure, I guess, to rule your life. , my brain is splitting right now in this so many different directions and I want to like tackle them all.

But, , now it's, it's just, it's a lot,

, pause. Everybody needs to pause. Cause I know everybody, like all the survivors listening are like, yeah, me too. Hold up. Okay. So this like possessive ownership of your spouse. I felt that too, like everything I was doing, I'm going to tally up and it's going to be like, like they're going to know. Somehow spirit world is going to tell them all the things that I've been doing to save my purity and save everything, like all my value and like, it's going to be amazing.

Cause that's heavenly family. Okay. The other point, what was the other point? Oh, did you ever think that you were doing something. Just for the sake of yourself getting vitality elements. And so it was therefore canceled out and it was there for selfish. And then you were going to hell I, , that's really funny.

My God, you just can't win with thinking like that. I don't think I've ever gotten to that point for some reason, like my own thoughts and like, things didn't matter. It was just like what I physically did. , so I never like thought like, , that far ahead, I think that sounds awful. Oh my God. Yeah. That's that was my, that was my trap.

Oh man. Yeah, I guess I did, like, I started to like see things pretty cynically though. It's like, if everything I'm doing is just for my benefit. No, it doesn't make you feel like a good person. It's like, you're kind of always hiding your shittiness all the time. And you're just like seeing yourself as like the shittiest person forcing yourself to be good, you know, instead of just, oh, I'm a genuinely good person.

, that resonates so deeply. Like no matter what you do, there's like this fatalistic perspective that you're still not perfect enough. There's still a shitty person with shitty parts and that's all you are like, oh yeah, like trauma dumping with my sister about all of this like shitty things that we've kind of grew up on.

One thing that I learned, , is just like, and something that you touched upon on the podcasts I was listening was, , that it's like growing up in the cold as a guy and a girl is like a totally different experience. Kind of like at least sexual. Like all this like shitty things about like, you know, your shoulders are making around you sinful, you know?

And it's like a whole different aspect of it that I didn't have to experience it all. , and it's like, oh my God, like people calling you like a slot for like the dumbest shit ever, you know, it's like, oh my God. Wow. Wow. Yeah. I know those two perspectives. Maybe that was like the D that was like, I don't know.

We'll have to have more input to see if other females that were raised in the church felt like I did, like, no matter what you do, you're still shitty. Even if you're doing something good. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, a lot of girls were taught, like, you know, it's just so dumb. It's like, you're like, you're S there's so much shame around your sexuality, but like, if you're just doing something nice that it's like, you're seen as like a horror or something.

Like if you, if you dress a certain way, not even thinking about anything, but like, you know, , just how you want to dress and how you wanna express yourself. But a lot of the girls were taught, you know, that like you're causing all these people to be fallen or something. And it's just so dumb to me. I, yeah, I guess I wanted to touch upon that just cause, , when you did call men or somebody didn't call men to join the podcast, I think you guys were kind of curious about men's experiences versus women's experiences in it.

, so yeah, I mean, was that your experience? Was there a lot of like shame, like force instilled upon. Yeah, I don't mind. Yeah, for sure. And I carried that subconsciously for a long time and I'm still unraveling it now, but I think all of it was very subconscious and it, you know, when you say like our sexual art, we were shamed for our sexuality that like bleeds into every aspect of your life, but the churches.

Yeah. But the church was very covert about it being sexual because they, they, they changed the narrative. Like they were like it's chapter two, it's E's fall, fall in nature. It's like, instead of talking about sex for what it is, which is just, you know, an urge, , they would like translate it into all this cult speak and make it super, , It's hard to navigate through.

I don't know if I'm making sense. It's still a lot to unpack, but like you could easily be like, don't do chapter two to a five-year-old instead of being like, Hey, don't think about sex. You five-year-old. And that's, that's like, obviously red flag, like that's so weird, but like out in public at the mall, you'd be like chapter two and every Mooney would know what the fuck that meant.

Like, it was like Pavlov's dog. Like we were conditioned to know that chapter two or fallen nature, any hint of that stuff meant something really bad. Like, like my tail would go between the legs and I would shake and fear like, oh fuck. Yeah. So like not only is like, you're doing good things for other people.

It's seen as like, oh, I'm secretly a shitty person, but like having like a sexual urge or like of these is like also I'm a shitty person. So you're just getting all these like, signals that whoever I truly am is completely shitty. And I got to not show that shit, you know? Yeah. And they can call you out in public by just saying something like fallen nature or like, it's just really like manipulative for real.

And, , talk to children about sex and like, damn about that kind of stuff. It's fucking terrible. It's like telling like these young kids that like labeling them, it's like, I don't know. It's just, it pisses me off so much, but just sexual beings, just like commodities. I don't know. It's yeah. Just showing your shoulders, , showing your knees, wearing nail Polish, looking like, yeah, for real.

And like one thing that I really liked about the episode I saw on your podcasts is you guys talk, you guys talking about that and how. Much of that is all that fear of like coming off, I guess, like, instead of like expressing yourself to just a lot of like, oh, I can't bring out fallen nature and guys, you know, and how it like unfair and like double standard that is, and , from my experience, like, as a guy, it, it, a lot of it was like, you're going to have these sexual urges from, for girls, but like just the resistant, you know, like there was no, like I had to police myself besides like, I didn't have to police the way I dressed or anything.

It was just like, yeah, you're gonna have this urge just don't don't act on it. So I, I would like, I think, the episode I did see, or that I listened to. You talked about like how guys had had an easier and I'm just here to say we did have it easier. Yeah. I think we also like drew the bridge. I mean, drew the parallel, like if you're just telling guys to resist the urge, it's like kind of perpetuating like a rape culture.

Like that's what you expect. Exactly. Yeah. Girls bring these out in guys and our job is to not worry about, I don't do it. Like you're naturally born rapist, but don't worry about it. Just like, yeah, for real. I think instilling that in a boy is, yeah. Again, like telling you like your default nature is to like rape things and like just be this horrible sexual monster beast all the time just don't do it.

So like, that was kind of like what we're taught, crying out then. Yeah. Limiting it's so limiting because that's not what sex is about. It's not about like, just taking advantage of some girl. It's like, I mean, it's a lot of things to a lot of different people, but it's more. Man. Yeah. HK was saying like, he felt like a sex monster and he had to do a lot of unraveling to find out that he wasn't a sex monster.

Like he's a human being that was labeled with a really narrow like worldview of men. Like it was really, I don't know, perpetuating rape culture and like massage, like absolutely man. Yeah. That's, that's definitely some, yeah, like I, if I'm not like my standard sure. Like having sex properly would be waiting my entire life to not have sex and then getting married and jumped behind and then waiting 40 days.

And then I can have sex without feeling. Whenever you wanted, like, no, there was no like courtship or romance or getting to know somebody or giving them a sense of safety and comfort and connection. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. There's none of that. You just got to not have sex, go to champion and then have sex, like mountain and hump, like whatever you want.

Like, no, it's it's so twisted. It's just twist it. , yeah, I really like your, that your podcast is showing a lot of the female perspective because there's so much that I haven't even heard about, you know, like from their perspective, like. Just, yeah, you have to watch so carefully what you wear or hold these guys.

It's like, you feel bad for making a guy fall in, you know, for like how they feel about what you look like. Just so, yeah. So, so you're addressing, like, you're confirming that this happened to you. , I did a lot of unraveling with purity culture to like find my safety and my autonomy and that my choices and like understand sex.

Do you want to explore that? Do you have any advice for men that have gotten out of this structure of being labeled, sex monsters? Do you know how you did it or are you still working through it? Oh, I'm, I'm not even like a quarter. I definitely still have all that trauma that I'm figuring it out.

Um, I, I, I'm trying to think of some good advice. That's a good question. , especially if there's like. The guys who are still, you know, really into the second gen. Um, I guess one thing is like, as a guy, it's easy to feel like you're using somebody, you know, w if you're having like a complete consent consensual sexual interaction, you can still feel like you've manipulated your way into it.

You know, that you have to, like, at least for me, like, I felt like if I, this person having sex with didn't know my entire life story and know every single wrong thing I've done in my life, that I'm somehow manipulating them into having, you know, having sex with me and just wherever feels that way. It's like, you know, you have a partner that's consenting and you want to explore yourself physically and somebody else.

And, you know, you guys are safe. I think anyone who told you that, you know, you, that part of your body. All of it is just completely wrong. I think you should know that that's a lie and that you can love the way you express yourself sexually. Um, you know, as long as there's consent and all those good stuff.

And, you know, I would say every guy who hates that part of himself to know that that part is not wrong or bad, and you don't have to like, be this incredibly gentlemanly version of yourself. That's like, doesn't think about sex at all. And is like, always thinking about marriage and stuff to like, enjoy sex, I guess.

Like, I feel like I had like such a high standard for when I can enjoy sex that, like, I never enjoyed it. I would always feel like as manipulating or the monster. So yeah, that's, that's, that'd be my advice. Yeah. That's so that's, that's great. So I so painful. It hurts me so much that so many kids were labeled like that and that it could destroy your, like, I would never tell that to my children, you know, like that they don't, I don't know.

It's just, that's great that you have, like, for me, I don't have kids, so I don't really know, like, like I see him, like every parent is really like a first job. Someone who is just wants the best for the kids. So they go down this route of like, you know, I have to instill so much fear in my kid or else their lives getting miserable, but it's further benefit.

I just love them so much, but you have kids and it's like, you can love them in a way that is definitely different from the way a lot of second gen groves. I, you know, that makes it, you make such a good point. Like they instilled so much fear in us, out of quote-on-quote love, but like, If I ever see my children, like in order for them to be prepared for the real world, I don't instill fear because that's just going to disable them from action.

And from making critical choices, I instill like knowledge and facts. And like, I try to give them all the tools in the toolbox that I have for them to understand and discern and make discernments on their own. And I don't feel like fear is like mobilizes that at all, fear is just completely paralyzing.

And like, you can't really grow. Like, I feel like I didn't really, I wasn't able to grow when I like mentally. Um, because I had all these fear walls that was built up by the church. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I think I'm a part of me like that. Again, there's so many different angles I keep seeing in a cult and keeps you from expressing yourself and getting like you're having like any agency in real life.

And one part of that for me, it was like, my dad adopted me and it was when he was like, Yeah. So again, there's like this incredible age gap. Um, and every time I felt like rebellious or felt like expressing myself in a certain way, or like aren't getting a tattoo or like dating someone, you know, like all these like things, my dad would just see it as like dumb stuff, like young people do.

And it would make me feel like, oh, since he's so much older, he's already expressed that explore that part of himself and decided he was dumb. That means that he's right in the fact that what I'm doing now with style, you know what I mean? It's like his age and just felt like his age gave him so much wisdom that I didn't have.

Um, and like, yeah, I don't know. I relate to that too. Um, my parents were in their forties when they had me, so. So, yeah, they were like ancient and we have to be, we were influenced by that Eastern philosophy of like filial piety and respecting your elders. Um, and I think that that really heavily played into those dynamics, , because the automatically like, think that they're right, because like that's the social construct that we were born into that elders knew best.

, so like, I totally felt that way because of that too. And, um, Man. I have a question I've been thinking of, I've been mulling this over. I've been seeing it. I've been arguing well with Moonies men, like Mooney, men will come at me like this. Isn't a sex trafficking organization and you have it all wrong.

Rivermen is great, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like I have to debate with these guys. And I just like, I can't, I can't. So okay. These guys, what they have in common is that we're all gifted, like a beautiful wife and they like, they're just, they're just so privileged. Um, how the fuck do you get out of that?

Like when you're given everything, you're promised everything, like, you don't even have to do anything. You're just like given the most adorable woman, like, and she'll make babies for you and be loyal. Like you could beat him like a dog and she'd be like, oh my God, this is spirit world. Like I deserve that.

Why would you leave? Like why, why did you leave? It's so fucking funny. Um, well, I'll tell you one part that I never like stayed to, um, have that, that is so funny, but I'm like, yeah, I never stayed in the call. Like imagining this like perfect obedient wife, you know, that's going to, um, you know, marry me and just stick with me forever.

I was kind of just more focused on like, am I enough? Um, to even get married? Um, I had a point, no fuck. Um, oh yeah. Okay. Okay. One thing that like, so something that was so dumb to me, but like when I, so I was focused on. Like being enough. And one part of that is being a Virgin for your life. And just like being, not thinking about sex just completely asexual until you're married.

Um, and, um, when I met, when I was interested in somebody, , who's another second gen. , they had told me that like they had sex and then, , like that sort of made me lose complete interest in her back when I was like really into it. And that made me like, now that I'm like older and made me still like so annoyed to like, see it like that.

Cause I just imagined like every time we had sexual conspirator first time or something, and I guess like my point is like, I'm thinking about like, you know, there's this girl who's like untouched super pure. And it's like, doesn't think about guys at all and stuff. More focused around like finding someone who isn't a human being.

Oh yeah. It's like, there's so much insecurity around like getting matched in that call as a guy it's like, oh our girl who doesn't even think about guys sexually at all has never had sex. And it's like, it's so dumb because it's like, you get, if they've had sex before it, you just have this feeling that your marriage is going to be like unstable or something.

So there's like this, you have to find the most stable girl. Who's only interested in you. It was like completely brainwashed. But like when I started explaining myself sexually, it kind of changed a bit where it's like, why would I want someone who was brainwashed into being my wife, essentially? Like, why would you want somebody who isn't themselves to is completely restricting themselves in order to stay married?

Um, yeah, kind of just slowly shifting that. It's like, wow, somebody who is just completely. Not themselves around me, you know, it's just like such a horrible thing. Um, so yeah, that's, that's kind of how it shifted when I was pretty young, so I never really saw it. Like I'm finding to perfect wife or whatever, because it's somebody who is scared and to be in my perfect wife, you know, who's brainwashed who isn't themselves.

And it's just horrible kind of love that you just revealed that like viewing women as like, you have to be like the unshared gum or like the clean water with no ink in it, or you have to be like, oh, it's only, it only happens one time, like, like viewing a woman like the perfect Eve or the perfect Virgin.

Um, just viewing somebody that way. It's toxic, it's a toxic mentality. And what it did to you is poisoned your sense of confidence and your self sense of being like you were insecure because of that. Romanticized bullshit doesn't exist. Like, unless you're, unless you're raping children, like that person doesn't exist.

Like, I'm sorry. But like, it, it doesn't like, and Rivermen was a child rapist. Like we know that so subconsciously, like that was the mindset going around, but it doesn't exist. And like you, I don't know, you got insecure about. Um, the girl told you she had sex before, and then all of a sudden man, what a trap.

And then she ended up getting like matched. And I don't know, I just had this like really toxic bottle. Like, you know, how are they even going to stay together? Cause she's always gonna be thinking about the first time she's so dirty. Like it's not gonna last,

but I mean, I don't know. I've kind of grown out of that. Yeah. I mean, I thought that way too. I'll I'll tell you what, like it's not on you. I also, actually in this exact parallel situation, I was that girl, I broke my blessing, um, had sex and then was getting regrouped to marry somebody before we did the things.

I was like brutally honest about my past. I was. I had sex outside of my blessing. Um, is this still gonna work? He's like, fuck. No. Oh my God. Oh yeah. See if you stay like a Virgin you're you're going to cause it's like, you've sacrificed so many years to be this perfect boy. And it's like, if you see somebody who has had sex, it's like, oh, they're used.

Yeah. Use them. There's no, that's a dirty tissue. Like I wanted a clean, just you like not fucking reality. Like people are like human beings. They're not commodities. Like actually after that experience, thank God for that experience. Um, because I didn't marry this psychopath that wanted a tissue of a wife.

Like I started realizing like, oh, sex is just experience. And actually it's a beautiful experience. It doesn't matter how many people you have it with. Like, I've learned lots of things about human connection through sexual. Relationships. Uh, I've learned a lot about myself. Like I don't regret any of the people I had sex with.

Like I don't. Yeah. And I think what's really funny is like, again, my mindset is like, it's, I'm thinking like in positive ways out, outside the Colts with like these brainwashed like patterns and thinking like, when I had sex, I was thinking like, oh, like I would find my relationship a lot more romantic and.

I met my wife, who also is like, had sex. And we're both kind of like have, are used, but we're in love together and we accept each other, but it's like so dumb because like I'm not even accepting myself, you know, and like seeing my sexual interactions as like something that isn't to be ashamed of, you know, it's like, oh, two broken pieces to fall in children falling in love, but it's like, it's it doesn't have to see, you know what I mean?

It's like these two ways of thinking, like I'm against the cold, but I'm still thinking in a way that it's completely relying on it, you know? Yeah. I totally get that. You're still unraveling. Yeah, no, exactly. Yeah. I, I want to, um, just go back any consensual sex I had, I don't regret, but

because this is a trauma dump, always. Um, man, so you're still unraveling and like, you're willing to talk about it. Like that's so brave. Thank you for coming on and like talking about it. It's, it's such a laundry. Cause you, yeah, you can see that's the thing is like, I'm seeing like the world positively outside the calls, but it's like, you don't know how much you're affected by.

You don't know how much, your ways of thinking every single day. And like the ways of seeing the world is like, you know, still so attached to it. It's like, oh, I love the idea of loving and accepting myself and just being who I am. It's like, oh, I can see that. But it's like also another part, part of me feels like I'm already marked as like this fallen boy, you know?

And I can just, it's like just constantly fighting that those two sides when it doesn't even have to be that, like, when I can just not see myself as fallen, I can just accept myself. Um, for any, uh, guys also who are listening to this, my number one advice go to therapy and you don't know how fucked your ways of thinking is until you go to therapy and then you talk it out and someone's there to be like, yeah, you don't have to see it like that.

Like at all, you're like, oh, really? Yeah, I love that. I love that you could, oh man. That's really fucking brave. Um, wow. Wow. Wow. Okay. So I want to say like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like w like it's a long fucking journey. That's why I hate that question. When did you get out? When did you get out bitch? I'm still getting out.

Like I'm still unraveling. I don't know. I don't know how to answer that. Yeah. I guess my question is really like, what was the first thing? I guess the two guys being matched with one big thing for them, it was a huge thing. That was a huge thing. My parents were both mentally ill as well. And I always questioned, like, why would Reverend moon like, do this to me?

Like, why would he punish, like, why would he put these people together? That was also like a pivotal moment. Like maybe he was wrong. Like maybe this was wrong. Maybe this should have never happened. Those were some early thoughts that I had. Um, yeah, but anyways, um, I want to say that, like, I think, I think there's this big thing, like breaking the cycle, breaking the cycle of biggie, breaking out of the cycles that we have subconsciously is to like, look at our thought patterns and take away the feeling that you're a bad boy or you're a bad girl, or taking away, like, look at them, just look at your patterns, look at how you're doing.

Like if you're, you know, looking at something bad, like, oh, she's not good enough for me because she had sex. Okay. That's how you think don't feel bad about it. That's how you think. Okay. Now you can assess that. Okay. You feel, you feel that way and you can look at it and be like, okay, I don't feel bad. You don't have to feel bad about it.

Just assess it and be like, okay, I don't want to think that way anymore. I I'm human. I don't want to think that way anymore. I can still, I can change that. Um, I'm going to take away the shame. I'm going to reassess the situation and I'm going to. Get rid of that thought pattern. And then like, I think it's like a very intellectual process and a lot of like reflection and communication with yourself to strip away and change the patterns does that.

I don't know. No. Yeah. That's a great way to look there for sure. Yeah. And I, I think I'm the kind of person who definitely needs help with that. Like who needs a therapist to tell me, like, you know, this is your law patterns are like really bad for you because from my, my basic self is like, you know, I see all these people who, I don't know, there's, there's such a great feeling, I guess, growing up, not great feeling like a really like embedded feeling, growing up with a call it that like somehow everyone around you is doing so much better than you and is like, knows the.

And it's like, you know, cause if, cause you like, I don't know, masturbated or something and you're automatically a lesser than everyone else around you. And those guys are all like, you're not having sex completely asexual and are know on the way to greatness while you're kind of stuck here. Um, so it's like, I don't know that for me just keeps me in that thought pattern.

And I can't like debate myself cause I don't have enough self-confidence to even, you know, rethink myself. Okay. So let's take the very real example. Like you feel bad for masturbating. I felt that I've felt that way. Okay. So it's human. So like masturbate, it's completely normal. It's healthy. It's a stress relief.

It's great. It's it's good for you. Um, you feel bad about it. Okay. Let's acknowledge the fact that you feel bad about it. Let's look at that. Like you feel bad. How can you take away feeling bad from that situation? Just knowing that a crazy guy fucking told you was bad and a bunch of people here. So it was bad.

And that's my way of thinking about it was just like either grew up in an environment that fucking hated them, any sexual aspect of their own life. And it's like, totally fine, you know? Yeah. Okay. Now, do you feel bad about that continuum of influence? Do you feel bad about being susceptible to that influence to make you feel bad about masturbation?

Oh yeah, I do. Yeah. Okay. So let's look at that. Let's zoom out again. Let's look at that. Let's okay. So we feel bad that we were duped into feeling bad about sexuality. Um, what's like the next pinched out zoom from that. Oh man. We're going real, dude. I don't know. That's as far as I get that's my constant struggle.

Every day I was duped. Fuck. Pretty much duped. Okay. Stop. Feeling bad about being duped. It's okay. It's okay. We're all duped. We're all duped at some point, like, except let's accept those feelings and maybe we'll learn how to let them go. Or maybe there's something else. I don't know. Yeah. I think, yeah. One thing that I can feel myself, I'm like slowly forgiving.

The fact that I've been duped is just my tastes of music. Like if I tasting music is like, my taste of music has been angry for since ever since I can remember, but it's slowly, it's kind of shelling out a bit and like, okay, maybe I'm, that's just like a salsa subconscious thing. I was like, oh, maybe I'm calling down.

Maybe I'm like getting ready for the future of right. You don't have to be angry all the time. You know, about this experience that we all grew up in. Yeah. I'm getting less angry. I I'm getting less angry as more people speak out and validate it and I'm getting more like. It's like slowly turning into hope, um, that I'm starting to feed that too.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's just a slow thing. That's really cool that you can see that in your music. Um, one thing that I'm curious, maybe you had some advice for me. Um, I like, um, I've recently started talking to like some old friends from BHS. Um, just cause, you know, I, I think it's good to like community that you grew up on and you know, like go back and kind of see where you are now, but it's like, whenever I mess call like an old friend of mine, it's hard for me to bring up such a huge part of our childhood, which is like the cult that we grew up in.

And it's like, the most scary thing is like, you don't know how they feel. You don't know where they are in their journey of like escaping or, you know, staying in. And it's like, how do you deal with that? Do you feel like you. Um, just say your opinion and not give it far, or do you like secretly find your way in?

That's such a good question. I actually like, yeah, I can't really talk about this kind of stuff with like my childhood friends, but I also stopped talking to them a long time ago.

Like when my blessing broke, like I had to escape that entire environment and I never really looked back. Did they like all shun you after Bridgeport was interesting? I think we all just, I feel like my friends circle was really damaged and a lot of us were really hurt. And so we haven't done a reunion.

Um, we're all just thriving in our own lives and kind of, yeah, that's a good question. Um, with the very small group of friends, I actually talked to, we do talk about my podcasts. Like they do listen to this podcast and we don't get too much into it because I think it hits too close to home. I don't think everybody's ready to, like, nobody wants, we're not all healing at the same space.

We're not all healing, the same wounds. We're not all, we're not all dealing with the same perspectives. It's a mixed bag. And I feel like the safest place for me to talk about this stuff for some weird reason is on this podcast. Um, because there's so many different perspectives because there's so many different because they also can listen in the comfort of their home and know that they're just listening and.

They don't have to defend themselves and I don't have to defend myself. And, uh, I don't know, maybe it's part of the magic. That's great. Yeah. I'm, I'm definitely not even like at a state where I can even just completely say, like I grew up in a call, like, fuck those guys. Like, I can just express how deeply like negatively affected I was by it and stuff.

Cause I'm just so worried. Cause I definitely have some old friends that are just so completely in it. Um, maybe I feel like the next step to being like staying in the cult is a sanctuary church. That's like the, that's the end goal. If you get to that part, you're like, okay, things are not good for you.

And I want to like tell them that, but it's like, I like the friendship, you know, I just keep it light. Um, but maybe I should probably just start saying my pay on it.

Yeah. I don't know what happened to me. I just like, huh? I don't give a fuck.

Well, yeah, you gotta remember. My, my trauma is like, am I good enough? Maybe? What if people don't love me? That's keeping her not giving a fuck at all. Yeah. But you'd have such a different situation. Like your, okay. So your family that you were your biological family, like, are they in oh, there, uh, well are my biological parents are my siblings have all started to leave.

Yeah. They, I think they've left. I'm not really sure. I just moved here, period. It's hard to talk about and it's hard to.

Yeah, I think I honestly, I think it's like really bonded us all because even though they like left and they're living their own lives, I can still see how it affects my siblings every day and the way they're thinking and how much, how lack of self-confidence and self-esteem they have, or this feeling of like distance yourself from everyone, you know, in order to feel like you're living your own life, you know, because you even told your whole life that what you're doing is wrong and who you are, is wrong.

And it's like, I can just see these like tiny things of like, you know, you don't have to see things like that. But for a lot of my siblings it's really brought us close together and just kind of, you know, um, telling each other affirmations that we're good enough and that whoever you want to do, and just like openly talking about like, you know, sex and stuff with like some is it just like clears the air of like, this is normal.

Like this is a normal part of our lives. Um, and that's something that, you know, growing up, I would never imagine, like just openly talking about sex. Um, so that that's been a great therapeutic experience. Just like talking about our honest lives. What's really in our heart going on our heads instead of filtering everything out, you know?

Yeah. Just being authentic. Yeah. I feel like I'm maybe the first step of leaving is like, fuck moon, fuck that theology. And then there's years of unpacking and

I didn't know about the unpacking part. I just like people who have left the call that early, they just seemed so much freer like for you, like from my first or second gravity, see like, oh, you completely left. You're totally fine. Uh, you're happier, but it's like, you know, obviously you probably had some stuff you have to unpack for sure.

Well, I'm so much happier. Let me like underline that. Yes. I'm so much happier. My brain is healing. Like a, it doesn't feel like I'm constantly contradicting every single action of every single day. That's really nice. That's really nice. You get a lot more confidence when you're like a hundred percent certain, like, you know who you are.

It's a nice, um but I was going to say that it's one interesting experience it's like, I can find like clarity and the way I'm thinking , you know, that's like, oh, I'm not thinking about like, How wrong I'm being or something.

And it's like, it's such a bad route , if you're trying to escape your mind so much, you know, . Cause it was a feeling of like, finally I'm not being contradicting.

Like I'm not arguing with myself all the time, you I just, again, like, think that like the last year is when I started to really escape mentally, at least. Um, and the first step recently was in that and then realizing, oh my God, what am I, why am I so stressed out all the time?

Why am I so angry? And that's all full-time. And then I still like falling into the call. And one thing that kept me going recently, or like last year, it was like this idea of a perfect marriage that lasts forever. Cause I would read, like, be anxious about divorce. It just sticks all the time and try to avoid the shit of it.

Um, because I wanted kids, you know, and divorced with kids is like really rough. Um, but you know, obviously if you go through that, it doesn't make you less of a person it's completely normal. Um, Yeah, just clarifying, you know, I'm not more shaming anyone. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing comparison can be awesome. And I'll be like a trial, but for me, like, I guess drawing over the call divorce was like horrible.

Like my dad would hate me so much and all these things. So like, okay. If I want a happy marriage, I have to say in the call cause were hopefully brainwashed and we'll keep our marriage going strong. Uh, but then I went to my sister who was actually mashed in Nicole, but they both, they both, well, he was, her husband was Everett.

I mean, he was, he grew up in it, but his mindset was like totally disconnected from it. Um, but she was married for like a long time. And then she told me, yeah, it's hard. Like, marriage is really hard. Like, what are you? Did everything right? And it's like still hard. It's like, yeah, it's marriage is hard. And that kind of got me thinking, cause it's like, I thought if I did everything correctly, that my marriage would be just easygoing.

Happy go lucky, I guess, forever. Um, but then that really got me thinking, like, what am I working towards if it's not something like that, you know? Um, and then that, you know, she's been a big help and just unraveling that string that is pulling, you know, how long have they been. If I can ask seven years.

Yeah. Seven years is hard, but then after that, oh my God, it gets so much easier.

Yeah. You can tell her that. I feel like, um, there's this theory that like every cell in your body changes at seven years, like everything switches out and I have this feeling that like you do too. Um, like you're a different person every seven years. It's so weird. But, um, yeah, in my marriage, like at the seven years together, That's when I that's, when I became an activist, that's when I started talking about the church.

So I changed. I changed, like I married him. I didn't even, I was like, yeah, to call, but I wasn't really, don't worry about it.

Changed, changed so much. And like it was growing pains, um, and returned into this like really supportive unit. Um, he's got the kids right now, playing baseball. Totally respects my time with you on this podcast, creating this platform, like totally supports it. He bought me this like fucking awesome mic, like, wow.

Yeah. He's giving me yeah. All the time in space. But like it was growing pains to get to this point. It was a lot of hard communication of like telling you what your boundaries were telling them, what you need asking them for help admitting when you like admitting when you miss them admitting when you feel like you're neglecting them.

Like I have to admit that to my husband and all of that just admitted. It makes me be able to change it and be like, okay, I feel like I'm neglecting you. And I feel awful about that. Um, let's do something about it. Let's break that pattern. Like if I'm like doing too many podcasts or doing too much activism stuff and just being really honest and having the difficult conversations, I feel like really got us to a place of safety and support and trust.

. I feel fulfilled in the marriage. Um, we're very like just a good unit. Our kids see the stability. There are baseball right now. Like we go play baseball three times a week. I don't, it doesn't always have to be hard, but it is, it does have hard conversations and it does take a lot of work and maybe that's hard, but it's also beautiful to be able to do that with somebody.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when she said it was hard, it was, I think that's probably more what you're referring to. Just a lot of amount of hard work you had to go with the seven years. And I just, I assumed all these like arguments and like divorce rates were due to, you know, people having sex. And like, I don't know.

I just had this dumb idea in my head that like, if you have a relationship before you're married, that you'll just be comparing your next partner to that first one. And it'll just never be as good. And that's why America, you know, there's so many divorce rates and stuff, and it's like, again, not diversity and everything, but to me growing up in the call, divorce was like the worst thing in my head.

Um, and I was like, oh, okay. I really have to fall through, but I'm learning. That's definitely not how things work. I can, you know, date somebody who's not in the call and I don't have to worry about. You know, I don't have to assume that that relationship is going to fail just because they're not in the call, you know?

Um, that's something that I'm still learning for sure. I assume like everyone who's falling. It's like, oh, they're going to leave. Their life is like complete chaotic and not stable at all. You know, it's just, so I want to say, like, I think there's this false pressure on marriage.

I think, yeah, people like glorify marriage and weddings and like ownership of each other. And I'm like, that's kind of weird. Like, it's kind of weird when you think about it.

Like we have all our taxes, we live in the same house and they have their, my last name. I'm like, ah, it's not about that. Like, that's like the wrong focus for marriage. It's about if you choose to get married, . It should be about like partnership, whatever that looks like to you, what, whatever that looks like to you and every marriage can be unique or every partnership is unique.

And so it's like, you have to deconstruct the concept of marriage. Like we were put on like, like marriage is this huge pedestal end game. Like just face value marriage. It's like, what does that even mean? Like, what does that even mean? I've asked. So like growing up in the call, I asked so many varied people, like, what's the secret?

Like, how do you make it last? And it's just so funny to me, to me as like a 13 year old is like just studying marriages and trying to make sure it lasts forever. Um, and like all these things and probably the best advice I've gotten or it's like kids at least like, uh, there's saw these like two match couples.

All right. And they had like a kid and I was like Danny secret to like raising a kid together. I was like, Uh, and they asked me like, how old am I? I'm like, oh, 25. Don't worry about it yet. You're fine. So like, I'm just not gonna worry about, it's like, yeah. Live in the moment. Yeah, exactly. I'm just like, I'm overthinking this shit.

Yeah. Yeah. I think there's still that value. That pressure marriage, man. It's not, it's not like the end game. Like it's just, it's just, you don't have to brainwash yourself. No, you don't. No, no. I think my marriage got better when I started, when I started valuing my own opinion. Um, because for a long time I felt like I was just on autopilot.

Like some brainwashed, X Mooney, just doing all the things. Yeah. That's how, that's what I thought marriage was completely not your opinion. Doesn't fucking matter. Like as long as your opinion matches up with your. Your husband or your wife? Um, and I haven't had sex, so it makes me like, not a damaged goods or whatever, then I'm good.

My battle. That's what a marriage is like. Ah, I thought that way for a long time and I'll tell you, it was hell it was hell like constant turmoil. I kept all my thoughts to myself. Couldn't actually communicate. Couldn't like when you feel alone in a relationship, that's a red flag. Like yeah. And like a lot of the times, if it means sometimes there's mismatching and you're just with the wrong person.

But like for me, I was with the right I'm with the right person. This is years ago, but like I wasn't giving myself credit. I wasn't letting myself speak like about how I felt about my trauma. Like even that was being hidden, like how I had, how I had like fear and shame about being touched or how like , I wasn't in touch with my body at all. So all of this stuff that was encompassing marriage was like torture to me. Yeah. God and I, I totally, I totally fell into that trap too.

I'm just like, you have to torture yourself. You kind of learn that torture is how you get good things, which is like such a dumb way to fucking look at things. It's like, you have to make sacrifices for your needs and all these things that you want a good marriage and a long lasting marriage and kids and stuff.

It's just like you learn to. Like, I dunno, like I kill yourself. Yeah. For real. Just completely denying yourself in order to make your parents happy, I guess. Yeah.

That's why it's a great podcast. Um, but, um, to answer your question before, like to elaborate on, like, why would you leave this call if you're getting like a perfectly brainwashed one? Um, I think, uh, at least for me, I think a lot of men are just incredibly insecure about what they bring into a marriage in a relationship.

Like what exactly what's our value. Like, we don't really know, like, you know, I guess you can come like, like, you know, like exterior stuff of like bringing in money or like being strong and sexy or something, but it's like this like insecurity again. Seeing that girl had a crush on as like, you know, damaged goods that's comes from insecurity.

And then my, um, idealizing marriage that also comes from my insecurity because it's like, if you feel like you're not worth things much, which is how we grew up, you know, or just monsters inside, um, we are, we're not worth much. And if you have a it's like you start to believe the only way you can really get a good partner is if they're kind of like you, you make so many sacrifices and they make so many sacrifices that you're kind of brainwashed into loving each other forever.

And that's like the only way you can have love, you know, it's like such a deep-seated insecurity. And I think that's one reason why a man might want to stay is just cause they don't feel like they can really find a partner in the outside world. They're outside, whatever quote unquote fallen world. So it's like really deeply planted.

See that you don't deserve love. Exactly. And that the only way you can get love is through. Fucking process of like denying yourself your whole life. That's how you get love. It's just so fucked up, denying yourself equals you'll get love this. Spend your whole life, hating yourself. You'll find love. Like Jesus.

I feel like you're just like living your life, like whipping your own back. Yeah, exactly. And I'm really happy that you communicate with your husbands so openly instead of doing that. Yeah. Now, now, like after I realized, like I got shit and he could receive that shit and be like, all right, I'm here for it.

What do we do? What do we gotta do? You gotta get you like a podcast. Okay. You need some time, some paint and your own business. Okay. Go do it, go get it. go fucking do it. Like, I just want you to be happy. He's like, I just want to toot my husband's horn. Like he's great. That's I'm really happy to hear that.

Yeah. This is compensated. Didn't really make me realize. Much, our childhood really is just orientate yourself in order to find love to get married. Yeah. It's like, I think, yeah. I just remember seeing like my like friends who would get matched and how glorified we were about like, oh, you finally found a girl it's like, that equals that you finally are loved.

You finally reached your perfect form, you know? And it's just, again, reeling back, feeding back to you that I am not good enough. I am not worthy of love right now. You know, that's not true. No, absolutely not. Yeah. You need to break that cycle. Like we are worthy of love, even if you're divorced, even if you're divorced, even if you never find anybody, even if you're asexual, even if like whatever your preference is, whatever it is, which is funny.

Cause that's like the main message and like loving everyone, but it's like so against its own message.

Yeah, on, on the surface, it's very much peace, loving global. We love everyone. And yet we don't like queer people. We don't like same-sex marriages. We don't like, yeah. We don't like a lot of things. We don't like outspoken women. Yeah. I think I have to go actually. I'm sorry. Hopefully it was that enough. Is that good?

I think we have like hours, thank you so much. If you have any follow questions, it was amazing speaking with you. Yeah. Just catching up with you too. I'm glad we ended. Yes, we are worthy of love. And if there's anything that's TMI, let me know. I might take some stuff out cause we set a little, I think it's all good.

I think that was great. Okay. I hope it was nice catching up VHS again, some time back in the podcast. Let me know. I have so many questions. Okay. I'll talk to you later. Bye.

And that brings us to the end of episode 33, the start of season four. If you're inspired by these episodes and these stories. Go check out the Patriot in the show notes below it's run robot. I am the host of this podcast. Plus child podcast. Um, yeah, go support the Patrion and it helped me kind of make things easier so I can do more outreach and networking.

Coding transcriptions artwork. Um, there's a lot that goes into making these episodes. And we're laying down the groundwork. We're laying down a lot of foundational dialogue. For deconstructing the unification church and the very long journey of healing. And we're all at different places. And we're all going at our own pace and it's just a beautiful space. This is a beautiful space where your voice can have a platform.

And yeah, I'm just asking for support. Let's do this. Um, like always take care of your health. Take care of your mental and we'll talk again soon.