The Church of Bad Dads-Teddy Hose S4 E39

Hey everyone. Welcome back to the blessed child podcast. This is your host Renee. Today. I am gonna release an episode. It's an interview with the notorious Teddy ho. Uh, he is an artist and writer based in Brooklyn, New York. He is a ex Moony activist who grew up in the Terrytown community, just north

of New York city, near the moon family in the eighties and nineties, before he moved to Seattle, when he was just a teen, Teddy was a second generation leader in Seattle in high school, and then went on to do STF and attend the university of Bridgeport to where I met him, uh, for two years before transferring to the school, visual arts in New York city.

He now creates social media videos for TV networks CareerWise and his owner R on the side is currently music. Teddy is most known for his whistleblower efforts on colds and the unification church. Having appeared on Netflix explained a and E's colds and extreme belief and numerous podcasts while doing graphic design for the falling out podcast.

Check out his link. Teddy ho.com/press.html. It's in the show notes. It is a very impressive, uh, page for all of Teddy's activist activities. So go check that out and enjoy listening to this episode. Here we. Recently, I was contacted by the infamous Teddy ho, and I am so happy to have him here today. Uh, Teddy, we met decades ago now, um, in Bridgeport and you've recently listened to the Bridgeport episodes.

We've been kind of doing a saga on them. So, um, I would be really happy to hear your perspective on that place and anything you'd like to talk about. Hey, yeah. So it's good to see you. And first off, I'll say like, you know, I'm loving the podcast. Like you bring so much like insight and intelligence and compassion and, and then when you talk about yourself and your experience, it's like, oh, that's where it comes from.

Like so much grit, you know? Wow. So I'm just saying, yeah, no, it's really cool. Um, because yeah, it's true. I met Renee when let's see, I was going to university of Bridgeport. I started in 1998. So Renee was like, she was still, almost like a toddler pretty much like you were how well, no, you don't have to say

Oh no, no, it's cool. I was seven when I first moved into the dorms there and met you. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I was staying at, there was one dorm building where the first floor was where like the new, new Eden, which is like the boarding school, high school for, you know, unification church kids. It was like for the bad kids or whatever, their parents like sent them there.

Actually one of my best friends in the church growing up, his dad was the principal. They had like on the top floor of that dorm building, you know, they had a few extra rooms and then the rest of the dorm floors were like for the girls and the boys and everything who went to the school. And yeah, I just, like, I got a room and all I had to do was like security at night, which was pretty much just sitting by the dorm and doing my homework or whatever.

That was how I paid rent. So, um, yeah, there, there's so much to say about this, actually I'll try to compact it or you can edit it or whatever, but, um, I never even planned on going to Bridgeport, but I did STF. It's the program after high school where you, our labor traffic basically. And right after I did that, I was in such a state of like confusion and disorientation.

And then I was like, I don't know what to do. Oh, I should go to college somewhere. Uh, and this one friend of mine was like, Hey, we should go to Bridgeport together. Like, you know, it would be cool. And I was like, huh. And like, my family had already kind of drifted away from the church. And, but he was so excited about it that he put the thought in my head and then I took it because, you know, my friend could hook me up with like a place to stay there

and attend so I could save a lot of money.

So it was kinda like a first step. I, I never planned to graduate actually, but then that friend ended up not even going and I was like, what the hell? But I did have other friends there. And again, it was, you know, I studied graphic design there for two years. So that's the long story of how I met Renee.

She just happened to be there. She, her family lived in the building, right? Yeah. We lived on the, I think we moved around in that dorm for a little bit, but we finally ended up on the fourth floor,

at the, on the top, on the right wing and yeah. Yeah. I remember I would see your dad in the kitchen and,

he would talk to me about stuff.

He actually.

told me like the, the most distinct memory I have of him is he was like, you know, don't mix money and religion.

Like I invested, I think it was like nine grand or something into like a church business. And when it, you know, defaulted or when it fell through, I think there's some policy where you're supposed to get some money back or something as an investor. And he was like, they just bowed and said, thank you for your donation.

Oh, wow. Yeah, we can talk about this. Um, this was, this was the re real estate investment properties in Terrytown Irvington, New York, the church in the seventies or eighties,

told all the members, Hey, invest your money. Like we're gonna build these, uh, townhouses. Yeah, I think it's yeah. Somewhere by the Belvedere property.

So they built a few townhouses and, um, my dad invested like maybe 10. He, he told me it was 10 grand, but now these days he's saying it's one grand. He's like going back and forth between his investments. I don't know what it was, but if you heard nine and I heard 10, I think he's minimizing now that he's older, trying to cope, trying to cope with the scam of the moons, but, um, oh my God.

Yeah, but he did. He did tell me, David Kim invested like 20 or 30 K and David Kim was a big leader back in the. So, uh, so yeah, in the early eighties they built these beautiful townhouses and, um, then bohi pot came, took over the project and was like, okay guys, thanks for your investment. This is officially a donation for Reverend moon and the Providence.

And you guys don't get Jack shit. So those townhouses, I think go for like a million dollars now and wow. And I think they sold them. They flipped them, but either way, I mean, they were part of a huge Ponzi scheme in the eighties. So that was when my dad learned the lesson don't mix money and religion, and yet he still did it, still did it, but I think that's part of the cognitive dissonance.

And it's amazing that he told you that. Yeah. You know, I think, um,

well, sorry one, I'll get back to this. Like, let me put a pin on this,

I, I just wanna say when I met you, like, and you were this kid, like, you were like a really like enthusiastic kid, you were like, oh, oh, check this out, check this out.

And like, you would like grab me by the hand and like, show me a, a drawing you did. And I was like, oh, you were so like, you were like so sweet. And, um, I feel like people, I, I know some other kids like that and like, I feel like that energy, like, they're this, this one other artist I know she's also a whistleblower.

And I feel like it's because. You were such resilient kids and then that you detected more strongly that something's holding this back and oppressing me, you know, I mean, I think all the women who grew up in the church feel it, even if they're still in, they're probably negotiating with themselves, why it's still a good thing, but really no it's messed up.

because it's super misogynistic, but, uh, yeah, no, anyway, that's kind of what I got out of that is like the most,

enthusiastic kids are the ones who are about the church, cuz they're like, you know, I'm naturally this way and you're trying to stop that or control me and that's messed up.

So that that's kind of my deduction. But um, yeah. Yeah. That's just an observation I had. I, I just thought it would be interesting if I talked about you as kid and everyone's like, get to know the host, you know, before she really knew herself, you know wow. That is, is so insightful. I, you know, my memory of myself, I, I mean, I remember a lot of heartache and lonely times, so to bring back that memory of like being with, I do remember grabbing your hand, I, I loved you.

I was like Teddy OPPA. Like you were kind of legendary status cause you weren't one of the NEA kids, you were, you were beyond the NEA kids and the NEA kids would actually pick on me and my brothers. They would, they were relentless. So when I saw you, I was like, oh, somebody that's like, oh, bust safe. Oh, I didn't know that.

Oh, that's sad. Yeah. Well, I mean. We, we gave it back to him though. It, there was this, it was a, it was the bad kid school. So it was yeah. A penitentiary. No, you're right. I'm hearing all these stories about the troubled teens industry. And it's throwing me back to NEA, like, oh, that's what that was. But it wasn't that it was like, there was overlaps with everybody sent their bad kids to Bridgeport and yeah, it was really interesting.

A lot of bullying, uh, but a lot of chaos and fun and rebellion mm-hmm um, yeah, they made like funny bit home videos. Like they made their own productions and I don't know. And, and it was kind of like college, they like pranked each other, like in college, like I remember the, the girls, like they, they took red markers and colored their tampons and threw it up into the boys bathroom.

so like, there's always those story too. That's pretty great. I hear a lot of stories like that from the, the GOP general orientation program of Korea. This is where I think when you reach middle school, a lot of second generation went to Korea. I heard you guys say GOP a lot and people are gonna be like, they were in the GOP.

Yeah, I know. so, so funny. Yeah. I wonder if they named it based on that cuz of the close eyes yeah. You know, when I went to go and I came back to America and I heard about the G O P on, on Fox news, I was like, yeah, that's us. this so streamlined. I know. It's like hard to tell the difference. Oh my um, but yeah, no.

Yeah, there was that too.

did I cut you off? I forgot where we were. No, not at all. Okay. So I, I still have questions about you becoming a security guard of the dorm. Uh, we did. Yeah, we did talk about the investments that, uh, first gen made for the Ponzi schemes that bohi PAC ran Boak is a very interesting figure.

I should do like a whole episode on him.

he's the, like another podcast called him the charismatic figure leader of the cult because he was the translator and moon was like, I'm so glad. Yeah. He had better pronunciation and he spoke with more firm authority. He had a deeper voice, so yeah, well, yeah.

Well Boak was also K CIA, like Korean intelligence. Uh, and then he, this was on El

Uh, Elgins just, just his last podcast. He did an interview and, um, they were talking, they were translating moon's speech. It was so weird because like, I, I could listen, I studied Korean a little bit and like all moon said was duh CBA.

Like saying somebody's a liar. Like that's all he said. And then all of a sudden bogie pop goes on a rant. Like, you know, Jesus was supposed to get married and have children. And then he failed his mission and da da, and, and, and now we have to restore Jesus. And I was like, no moon just called him a liar.

Like, why did you, you just like moon, like didn't say all that stuff. And I was like, whoa, how much charismatic, um, lip service did bogie pock actually deliver to make moon speech make sense? oh man. Yeah. That's that's funny. That's a really funny observation. Yeah.

that's cool that, you know, Korean too, just the little you retain that.

I know I can read it and I know like a song or two. Yeah. I just, I just know he didn't like say all that yeah, but bohi P so yeah, it makes me wonder, like, if it really was actually bohi P's church and religion. Yeah. Right. I mean, yeah. That's kind of like, uh, in wild, wild country, like, uh, it felt like it was really about the,

the next in command, the defender of OSHA,

Sheila, who was like, you know, his secretary, she was the one who was like giving the hard line rules.

And she was the one who attempted murderer, you know, when someone was being disloyal or whatever, or tried to attempt to like a coup within the group. And, um, you know, OSHA was just all peaceful and like, Hey, I'm cool, bro. Everyone should be making love, you know, that's how it seems. So that seems to be, yeah, a lot of, you know, there's that funny saying, like, Jesus saved me from your followers, you know, it's like, yeah, it's always, it seems to be the second in command.

Who's really, you know, cuz they don't have like a threshold of. How, you know, they're just trying to please, please, please. And there's no limit to that. So that's something I've noticed in these kind of like high demand groups. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you bring up that point. Like moon, it is moon, but it's the whole organization working together and they would kind of play off each other, like to pull media off of them or pull political pressures off of them and kind of go back and forth with like, oh no, he's in a lawsuit.

No, it's him. He did it. Like he laundered that money. Like they, they, yeah, it was, it's an interesting conglomerate of like, who's really behind the power behind the curtains. Yeah. But no, but yeah. To your point. Yeah, definitely. No, the moons were absolutely sinister and vicious and violent. I mean, I grew up near them, so yeah.

And you lived in Terrytown for a while, so maybe you got a glimpse, but like yeah. They, uh, yeah. Scary people, scary people. Yeah. I just remember sneaking into cook Jen's uh, music room in Terrytown mm-hmm he had that recording studio for his band. Hoja, was it cogen? Yeah, not cookin. It was cogen that's right?

Yeah. HIIN was the, he was like the metalhead slash gun enthusiast slash abusive husband who had a book written about him. So yeah. Yeah. And now he's passed away. Um, mm-hmm but yeah, no, I remember. Okay. So Terrytown their property there. They had the recording studio, there was a martial arts room, but, and then there was the tennis court behind it and the pop, the pond was beautiful.

And then there was, we were talking about the Bevere property. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We're talking about the Bevere property and then Jesus' wife lived on that hill, like in that big house. Oh, really? She did like, in that main white, like off white house in the middle. Yeah. When you first drive through the gates and go up the hill, there's that one house like with the cul-de-sac that's where Jesus just okay.

The main house. Yeah. Wow. So yeah, cuz it, it, it felt like,

I, one in the perks of all this, you know, human trafficking money, which is awful is that we had yeah, nice church properties. So like we would just walk in and out of there, there's like this beautiful library in there and these like beautiful wooden, like ornaments on the, on the walls, you know, just this incredible property.

But you know, that's what the whole unification church felt like. Even our house that we lived in was a church property in Terrytown, which, you know, I lived in Terrytown New York until,

92. So I was like 13 when I left. Yeah. That, uh, it didn't feel like ours. It was like, no, this is just church housing.

Like nothing belongs to you. Yeah. No. And it's kind of, it's kind of funny how. Life imitates cults, like powerful cult in that, like now, like everything, like most computer programs and stuff are like subscription based, then you can't just buy it and own it anymore. And I'm just like, Ooh, is this cuz like cults are penetrating our governments now and stuff.

Anyway, I don't know. I'm getting kind of paranoid and weird. I mean, I don't seriously think that, but I think, but it is a way to make more money or something. I guess it proves that, you know, maybe it's all part of late stage capitalism. You know, I feel like humankind, there's only so many ways to organize a massive amount of people and um, so.

inevitably, everything starts mimicking each other, like anti communism, communism, cults, capitalism, socially, all of them, you know, they're all kind of shadows of each other. They're, they're, they're very similar because you have to organize a lot of people and it takes a lot of fictitious beliefs and systems of control.

Um, so I feel like maybe, yeah, maybe that's the obsession with cults is that people want like a, a more clear cut, black and white, like, okay, what do we avoid? Like what, what do we not do? What are we doing wrong? How, how can we do it better? Yeah. I, I feel like it's like mostly, I mean, the, the emphasis on like, oh, communism or duh or any one philosophy, I think what makes those things bad.

I mean, you know, aside from like clearly racist or hateful groups where, okay, that's clearly wrong. Um, but any kind of philosophies that you know, are inconclusive or.

I think a lot of it has to do with who's leading it. And I think the person leading it is usually gonna take the brand that, um, is popular with the, with the society.

And they're gonna be like, well, I'm for this right guys. And like, in order to kind of control them or to, you know, um, influence, uh, for example, the LDP in Japan, the, the liberal democratic party is super far. Right. But because that's the party in power, uh, the leaders have to say that that's what they're part of, you know, Abe was ultra nationalist.

So like, anyway, we're, we're going into, oh my God. Talk about here. This is super interesting. Uh, recently the LDP, the Japanese LDP, like what, what was it? The whole thing? They all resigned oh, I, I haven't, I've only been keeping up bits and pieces. I, I visited my family in Seattle the last week, so I haven't been keeping up as much.

Gotcha. What it's kind of been like relaxed don't think about this. Yeah. It turns out most of the LDP has ties to the unification church. There's so much examination of the unification church going on in Japan at this time. And like, yeah, it's all going back to. Kechi Saika like these guys aren't aren't named, but what is it?

Kodama and moon. The, the guys who established the world, anti communist league, who worked with United States government to develop like the LDP, essentially. Anyways, we don't have to talk about that. But one thing I was so pissed off about on TikTok this morning, somebody was like a Shinzo was assassinated and here's the juice.

And they were like it's because Abe was gonna release documents on aliens. And I was like, God, it, I know. I know. They always, I know they just like take our algorithms, like conspiracy, what? John Born's like struggles with . I was like, guys, the, the Moonies and UFO, like, yeah, they're similar, but they're not the same.

I know it's like, come on. No, we're the children born into this. Let us speak. Like, we're not theorizing here. Like, oh my God, this to went viral, viral. Everyone was like, oh my God, somebody who killed Abe was planned. It's the government. And it's like, no, it wasn't money. It's not like that wasn't gonna happen.

Right. Oh, anyway, someone has to, but it sucks that I went viral,

oh, I, I read this morning. In some tweets, uh, there's some suspicion that,

NHK studios, which is like, I think they're like the NBC of like Japan. Um, they, uh, not associated with them just kind of as big and, uh, like they are somehow involved with unification church.

Like they acknowledged like the anniversary of moon's death on, you know, so there's a, some suspicion and they, they also operate in the same building, I guess. There's that's the one. Yeah. That's the one office. Yeah. So yeah, Renee and I are getting a lot of Japanese, like second generation tweets, like tagged and everything in those cuz they know we're whistleblowers, so yeah.

Um, yeah, just Google translate. Yay. yeah, I should, uh, actually me and, um, Elgin are gonna do a breakdown on some of the translations just to get it. Oh cool. Circulating in American and English speaking news, because like I'm so done with people talking about UFOs and Shinzo LA being. So like there's just random conspiracies going on.

I'm like guys, there's evidence just like search out the names like these. Aye. Aye. Yay. It's uh, Yeah, it's bad. oh boy. But okay. We okay. That's a fun tangent. Yeah. Let's go back to you in Bridgeport. Um, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so something else I was gonna bring up, uh, along the lines of, you know, your dad telling me about, you know, um, oh, I regret investing in this church company and, and you, again, he said religion and money doesn't mix.

And, um, so someone else who kind of told me that too, was the principal of the new Eden academy. Dr. Spurgeon, who, again, I was like best friends with his son growing up

who, you know, by this time he went to the blessing and he was already out, he was dating someone else, you know?

so I didn't see him much, actually.

He was with his girlfriend most of the time.

so I remember Dr. Spurgen, the principal, his dad was, uh, driving me somewhere. He was giving a ride, I guess, somewhere on campus that I'd go. And he's like, and it seemed like he wanted to talk to me. And so he said just out of the blue, like I didn't even prompt us or anything.

He was like, always be financially independent, never rely on the church for your finances. He just like, straight up said that. And I, I like really respected him. Like, that's the thing, he's a really smart person. Um, really intelligent people, like all those books in the school library. I apparently he read all of those.

it's like even they can be pulled into something, you know, if it's powerful enough and charismatic enough. And you know, if, if there's,

yeah, there there's tried and tested methods of essentially, um, you know, indoctrinating people that are very powerful. So that's like beyond intelligence sometimes, you know, that's human experience.

Anyway.

yeah. Uh, so what I gathered was that, you know, I think because my family was of the first flock, my parents were of the first flock of unification church members in America,

the 7 77 blessing. That's like one of the earlier mass weddings, uh, you know, the earlier the mass wedding, the more you respected your family was.

So I'm like one of the youngest in my family, my oldest brother is,

he just turned 50, uh, sorry, Dave, anyway. but like, um, I think they felt like they could talk to me because like I knew what was up, you know, I came from like a longer line of the unification church and, uh, you know, I think deep in, in a lot of these parents' hearts were like, You know, we, uh, we know what's going on and, uh, if we could talk about it with someone, we would, but we gotta safe face in order to like, maintain these resources for our children.

You know, because like, if we don't have this we're screwed. So I think a lot of them feel trapped. , but they just go with it and they tell themselves, oh no, this is a good thing. This is a good thing. You know? , it's something, , called betrayal blindness that I heard of recently in psychology. Like, even if you're betrayed, you learn to like, just go with it anyways, because you have to in order to survive and that can become a pattern, you know, after you leave a cult that, invites, you know, , problematic or dysfunctional, , things into your life or people into your life.

So that's something I'm always having to be conscious of. I just, I, you know, a big reason I wanted to speak on your podcast is cuz is to speak to the complexity, you know, like that is not black and white. It's not why didn't you just leave? It's like, Ugh. like, I can't stand that. I know Jen Kiva also is like, she wrote a whole blog post about it that spells it out really well and answers that question really.

I think it's important for anyone to just like, really speak to the complexity. So people have respect that, like, you know, this isn't just stupid people, you know, in this church or whatever, , it's a very tried and tested, , method of manipulation and coercion, you know, that's very powerful and that anyone is susceptible to yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I love that that insight on, on these people are intelligent. Like my dad's a doctor as well. Yeah. And, um, yeah, it's, you know, if anything, he was an idealist and he, he needed, he had a chaotic life before meeting the church. And so this, the church offered a lot of structure, unified goal, an ideal of unification of the world.

I mean, that, that was grand and bigger than themselves, to be part of it was powerful, even if they're suffering in it, they're gonna shove that resentment down cuz yeah. Being, being robbed of your money sucks. And it sounds like Dr. Spur experience that too, but they kind of let it slip to you. My dad let it slip to me.

They kind of were trying to educate and warn us, but also like you said, maintain the investments that they had made already in the community and yeah. Yeah. These people aren't, they're not dumb. This is part of survival in a massive community. You just have to save face and go with it. Mm-hmm . Yeah. And um, also like that's why they recruit mostly on college campuses because people are fresh out of the nest and.

They're insecure and they're like, I don't know what my future's gonna be. I don't know if I'm doing a good job and like, you know, so everyone's vulnerable and yeah, just like freshly on their own. So when someone comes and they're like, Hey, come to our nice center and we'll feed you and friends, like, that's so hard to resist.

Like I would totally fall for becoming a Moony if I was like, knowing me. And like, if someone loved bombed me like that, I, I could totally see myself falling into it. So, yeah. Yeah. And these systematic organizations of, um, like breakdown and reeducation are called the collegiate association for the research of principles, which is carp that is on campus of hundreds of universities where they do just that come, come to our movie night, come to our movie night and come sing karaoke with us.

We're a great group of safe people. And then, you know, a couple weeks down the road, we have a mission for world peace unification. You know, and then, and then Reverend Messiah. Yeah. And moon Messiah . Yeah. And also, I, I also wanna say, speak to that by saying like, I think everyone who's involved in that has good intentions, like, because they were so, you know, indoctrinated with, like, this is a good thing and they see good things and they hear all these holy speeches for hours and hours that make me wanna kill myself anyway.

It's like, they all think they're doing a good thing and it's all backed by this human trafficking money that they don't, they don't question where it comes from. They're just like, wow, we have these beautiful properties and look, we all get along. We have jobs and, you know, and, um, anyway, you just have to stick to the program to like survive it.

So, yeah. Like, I, I think everyone has good intentions in carp. I don't think they're like out to be like, you know, we have to separate these people from their families and like, they really all think they're helping people and that's, you know, I think ISIS and the Taliban, like they think they're helping people.

They think they're rid the world of evil people. Like that's what people need to understand. Like just, and I see that kind of happening in America with extremist groups. I think everyone wants to do the right thing, you know, but it's when you're not aware. Uh, and you're just too.

Yeah. It's just when there's so much support and think linear thinking in, in like your group or whatever. You're yeah. It's um, You get it? oh, absolutely. Uh, a lot of people were bringing parallels between Hitler and moon recently. And like, I was, I was looking up Hitler's ideology and like he thought he thought he was helping the human race as a species.

Oh yeah. He wanted to create, yeah. The superhuman he wanted Hong Kong sounds like a biblical, like spiritual book. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no. He wanted to create the super human race, blue eye blonde haired. And he thought just, and this is the tie with moon is the blood lineage. The pure blood lineage would lead to.

Heaven on earth or whatever he called it. Um, and it was the area in race. And then I think moon took that exact theology, pure blood lineage, but instead of physical blood lineage, it was spiritual blood lineage. And like, I can't unsee the similarities now between Hitler's ideology and moons. I'm like, oh, it's the same thing.

There's this us first them, this superiority complex, this pure blood lineage just, and you can do really awful things when you believe that you're so special and different. And I think that's maybe what is so damaging is when you start viewing the world as us first them, and then some, some benefits, uh, outweigh the wrist or the damage.

And that's when things can go really bad. Yeah. I remember, , someone else said like, uh, it's like eugenic, like, uh, the whole pure blood thing. It kind of, that feels like eugenic, cuz it's like you're born into like being right. You know? Yeah. It was also gonna say like, uh, that, that kind of also goes into my thing about like, oh, I don't think these, like, you know, narcissistic leaders care about the philosophy of this or that they just try to go with what people can relate to or, you know, you have to kind of parlay off something else.

Like another trend, if you wanna make your own thing, you can't just introduce something out of the blue and expect people to like accept it. Also the concept of body Fatton in, uh, in Scientology is like exactly the same theory that they're using in ch. Of like, you know, you have little tiny, evil spirits microscopic, like in your body and you have to slap 'em out like that.

I'm like is the unification Jersey is just a big patchwork of plagiarism that wants to stay in power. It feels, it's like, oh, well that worked for that cult. So I'm gonna take that, you know, like, is it all that like, I, I can imagine cuz the moons are so sociopathic that, you know, there there's just, no, there's no thought of what's right or wrong.

It's just like, what's gonna keep me in control. And based on what I'm hearing, like, especially like Tim Porter's episode in the falling out podcast. Yeah. Like he talks about the moons and what he knows them. Cuz he is about the same age as like some of them he's older and yeah. The way he talks about them as people and interacting with them and hanging out with them is like, wow, you know, they're just like, it's about control.

And if they lose control, they're gonna like mess you up. Or they're, they're just gonna get violent and nasty. Like that's really. And it's sadly, I think that comes from trauma. You know, like they moon wasn't a good father. He was a violent dad. He hit his kids and totally neglected them. And he would like tease them like toys.

And then they treated church members like toys. They treated us second generation like toys. And that's why my older brother, , my oldest brother who also used to hang out with them cuz we grew up near them. , he stopped wanting to hang out with him after like a few times, like they would do stuff like, you know, dunk their, their quote unquote friends, heads underwater until they almost drown.

And then just like pull 'em out and laugh, you know, like that's kind of who these people are. , and you know, I appreciate the ones who have gotten stepped. A few of 'em have stepped away or the younger generations, I think also have kind of stepped away from that whole moon craziness. But I, you know, I still think they need to go to a therapist and like unfuck all this, you know, crap.

, that's just like in a nutshell, my assessment of the moon family. Yeah. Did you, did you hear about that time? There was a moon, a true child and a regular second gen on a boat, on a boat in a lake. And, , the kayak flipped over and one of the, one of the kids died and the moon kid. Yeah. Um, there, , so someone I know like claims that, uh, hin like held some, like held some like a second generation underwater, you know, again, to like tease them and then like held them under their too long.

So it was actually like a murder. Yeah. That's um, I don't think he intended to murder him, but yeah, that's, that's, uh, that's the theory and I, and of course, you know, anytime there's a death, like the church just covers it up and then they're like, oh, well, if the, if the person who died closest people in their life says everything is, you know, explained, like I'll just believe them.

Yeah. You know? So, uh, I, I was talking with one of my parents about that. My, my stepmom and. Things didn't add up. So when you mentioned that they like to drown people for, for entertainment, that that's the story that came to mind. I was like, oh, you know, that night, I don't think there was a lot of wind. It wasn't a storm.

It wasn't anything crazy. Like that kid could probably swim. It was a lot of weird things going on around the boat. Yeah. And I'm sure KK in his head, he was like, oh, I broke one of my choice. Yeah. You know? Yeah. That's honestly how I feel like, yeah. Yeah. That's awful. Um, but at the, but at the same time, I'm sorry, just to go back on this HIIN thing.

Yeah. Um, Tim had in, in the following out podcast, Tim had also talked about how, but KJA was like, oddly, like loyal to the people in his group. So like Tim was in his little posse, you know? And like, if anyone messed with Tim then would like beat that person up. So it was really weird. Just, just to add, to, just to say, you don't know this person as one thing, like these are complex people too.

Yeah. That's I I'm glad these actual stories are coming to light instead of, I mean, I revered the moon children growing up. I thought they were royalty. I would kiss the feet. You know, they threw clothes at us, Monte piled. We, we, I remember having a pair of socks, like given to me during our morning service, like at two o'clock in the morning in Belvedere and they were worn and they were used, but they were the true children's socks.

And it was like, oh wow, these are sacred. Oh, yeah. There's uh, it's funny. So someone posted on this one online group. There's like a quarter of a bagel eaten by Sonya moon on eBay for a hundred bucks.

oh, oh my God. From like 1998, like Christ dude, you better put that in some casing, like, yeah. But like, I think, I think it was, it, it, it wasn't just like moon climbing the ladder. I mean, what I heard was that like moon, , when he convinced one of the top insurance companies in Korea, , like the family that owned it to like join the unification church.

And so he had this incredible surplus of money, all of a sudden that's when it went next level to like mega international church. , but I also heard that, , I guess bogie P was, I don't think, I guess he, maybe he wasn't or the K CIA, like they weren't in the church at the time that they like plucked, uh, moon from society.

And like, we're gonna use this guy, like, I guess it was kind of a two way street. I, I don't know. It's really hard because you know, none of this is documented accurately. , because you know, you can't ask them about it or they'll be like, God ordained this. And , so you just have to like, kind of rely on speculation and clues, like around it.

And I don't know if we'll ever have a totally clear story, but you know, how well do you know your moon has documented all that stuff really. Yeah, there are names I'll drop bohi PAC Juan pill, Kim UN Kim, David, Kim, um, and all those guys in like the 1950s. Um, that's the connection between a lot of political pool that moon, the moon organization has now.

But, uh, what was I gonna say? Shoot, I totally forgot. Um, we talking about the governments and like moving. Oh, okay. The tides with communism, how it parallels is like, we were all working for free. Like you were trading your security job labor for a place to stay. My dad was working in the dorms, living off the compound, working as a physician and a teacher, so we could stay there and it's like a one bedroom, like, like not even there's no bathroom.

There's no, there's a shared kitchen, a community kitchen. There's a, there were dorm rooms. Yeah. There were dorm rooms. . Yeah, but I mean, I visited dorm rooms these days and they, they have their private bathrooms. Like they they'll have two rooms attached with the bathroom. It's like, we didn't even have that.

Yeah. Yeah. The price of school has found up so much that, oh my God. My nephew went to art school and man, it was like a luxury suite. I was like, dang, like he didn't mind that he was like going to school during the pandemic. Cuz he is like, man, I got this sweet apartment or like, sorry, dorm. But like yeah.

Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. The dorm that we had was not the same. Gosh, you meant it really was like a prison. Like you could see like the brick walls, like the, it wasn't open Facebook walls. It was like the cinder blocks that painted over in white that made up our wall. Right. Wow. Yeah, no you're right. And then the, the bathrooms were so dingy and that elevator was so unsafe.

oh yeah. wow. It's all coming back. Oh my God. That was, yeah. I can't believe I went there, but uh, you know, I don't know it, we were at least like the, the only good feeling I get is like, well I was young then and like excited about life and I had more hair and like kinda a skateboard and I don't know. Um, and I was meeting other college kids and sometimes they would see me through the window doing security.

And I was like, Hey, uh, and I just had to explain like, well, you know, I'm not like really in a church. Right guys. I dunno. Oh wow. I was, I don't know. I, I didn't have bad feelings about the church until I researched it more like in my early thirties. And then that sent me on this whole trail of becoming like a whistleblower more.

But you know, while I was in it, it was, you know, they cater to you very well that you're treated as special because you have the pure blood, cause you were born into the Moonies and like, you know, , you have this great international group of friends. , I really liked that. I really feel like a citizen of the world.

And so when we moved to Seattle when I was 13 and it was like, my school was almost exclusively white, like I felt really like kind of limited. I was like, man, this is only like one perspective, like, come on, like we need more voices, , anyway, I, I do appreciate a lot of stuff and I think it's the, the members who make, uh, any cults good.

They make it, you know, they have to clean up for the, you know, unpredictable cult leaders like reckless narcissism, you know, who can be charismatic as, at first, you know, just like getting into a, a relationship with an abusive boyfriend, you know, or girlfriend like, yeah, they're gonna, the introduction's always warm and fuzzy, but then, you know, the, then the rough stuff kicks in and you get traumatized and just sticking with it.

It's like anyway, cold colds, 1 0 1. But, um, wow. Yeah. Speaking about the grown ups in Bridgeport, looking back. I kind of, I can't help, but have some sympathy for them. Just how much they were kind of used and controlled and yeah, I, I think it's mixed. Like I think they, but that's the thing. And then like in stuff like labor trafficking and stuff, they're all bonding experiences because you're all having a tough time together, which hardens the glue more to like stay in.

Oh. And like, it's funny, like when I see online, like some second generation as adults, like, you know, it's sad, like when one of 'em dies or something and it's like, yeah, he was my brother during an STF, you know, like we were selling like crazy. And I was like, you were selling for fascism. That's what you were doing.

Oh man, it's such a movie new, but anyway, , it's such a mixed bag. It really, really is God, but it, but it goes to show that, you know, I think like the bottom line is like, people will do what they have to for survival and acceptance and to be validated. Yeah. It's harder to see things all the way through, you know, like that's why this climate change thing is so hard is cuz like, it's just like, ah, like the world is getting hotter and uh, I don't know, but it's so hard to change our systems.

That we rely on, you know, it's like air conditioners con contribute to like the warming climate change. We, we got, it's really hard. We need a massive overhaul on green energy. Like we need, we need a massive shift and hopefully it's coming. Hopefully it's coming. You know? Cause I mean the hotter it gets, the more I think people be like, oh, okay.

Like it's not real until it happens to me. Right. Hundred 20 degrees in Europe this year, maybe 130 degrees next year. Maybe that'll do it. yeah. Or like that one meeting in Venice where like, it was about climate change and stuff and how like the water levels were rising and then water came into the meeting room they all did clear out.

Yeah. Anyway, it's ridiculously dry. Like I think it's rained. Like maybe once every six months down here in west Texas, maybe. Yeah. Cause we, we keep putting the water into the ground for oil. Like I'll have to go show you guys some, some of the water pits, but they're putting it in by the lake pool to get oil out millions and millions of gallons.

Wow. Yeah. I, I actually, , I, I went back and visited, , last year, , the house I grew up in, in Terrytown from like, you know, the mid eighties to the early nineties and , yeah, there, there was a pond by that house and that pond is like maybe a third. Like a third of it is left. It's all dried up. So that was also like, ah, but anyway, I don't, I don't wanna, I'm not a scientist.

I don't wanna attribute to climate change. I don't know if that's the reason, but it just was like, Ooh, like this clear thing for my childhood, that changed. Yeah. No, whatever it was, we all have, we all have eyes for observation. Like if you see water going under into the ground disappearing forever, like below the water table and then it's drier, like, you know, something there's some, there's gotta be some cause and effect there but yeah.

Anyways. Yeah, this is we'll we'll we'll go away from that. Um yeah. Okay. So I kind of wanna talk to you about SCF. Okay. So your family drifted away from the church, but you, you went to SCF mm-hmm yeah. So when, yeah, in 92 we moved to Seattle and, , well, Bellevue Washington was just outside Seattle. I don't know why it's like the, you know, if you're from the bay area, it's like the Palo Alto of, of San Francisco or it's like the, , Beverly Hills.

It it's like the rich kind of, you know, white collar, , place. It's almost like a whole nother city where a lot of people get tech jobs and stuff now. And, Redmond nearby is where Microsoft is. So yeah. Uh, we moved to Seattle and in that time, my it's funny because an Elgin has talked about this too on his podcast.

It's like moon messed up in that he had parents, you know, have their families move to their father's hometown. And, um, you know, uh, in order to witness to that town, because I guess he was losing members or whatever, I don't know, just spread the witnessing effort. And a lot of these families who left the headquarters in New York, you know, to go to these, uh, states and countries suddenly realized they were away from someone looking over their shoulder.

And so my parents just like slowly drifted away because I think there was just such a sea change of like the pressure in New York and like the stuff they were involved with. I think they really started to see it from a distance from, for what it was. And they, they, I think they knew the money was going to like messed up places and to people's luxuries.

So anyway, um, it looks like you're gonna say something. Can I just say one point about the, this is the home church Providence. Um, this happened right around the same time moon was prosecuted for tax evasion and the Danbury prison. So it was very much to get the heat off of his organization from labor trafficking people for a decade in vans, seven, eight years in a van and, and having everybody in the Manhattan center.

And like, it was just a, it was too much attention. It was, there was too much negative attention. So the, I never thought about that. Interesting. Yes. So the political move was disperse. Create more, create families, get real quiet, lay low. Wow. And, and that's what happened. So I just wanted to put that in there.

So continue. And that was so hard to just like leaving all, like, you know, this community that, again, it's like the hardened glue of like, feeling like you're rejected from society, especially growing up in like Mo you know, Terrytown New York where the moons lived and feeling even more like everyone was looking at you, like, are you involved with that family, that cult family nearby, you know, there were hyper, I mean, you experienced that too.

So, um, yeah, moving away from that and having to enter the world was like really hard. And I, I don't think I'll ever come down from it. Like it was like being born on drugs, you know, it's like being born into this hyper accepting place simultaneously, uh, being so detached and afraid of the world. And that's what I bring up a lot in my podcast and reason.

So I think that that's, that's the difference between my childhood and maybe others who lived maybe further out and were like, eh, it wasn't as bad for me. Or like, or it was worse in other ways, you know, I don't know, but living near the moon family, I think is definitely, , a distinguishing factor in my particular, , upbringing and why I feel even more compelled to speak out from a place of like experiencing direct interactions with these people.

So. Anyway. Oh, I'm I'm reading this book, um, that reform by Robert J Lifton. Um, oh yeah. And, um, there was this one. Yeah, it's a great book, right? It's great. That's where I got it's intense. It's harsh. It's so intense. It's about trauma. So yeah. Yeah. This is the first book that I read that I was like, that was like Cho young.

And it's like, he's talking about a communist prison camp and I'm like, wait, why do I relate to the prisoner? And I also relate to the, the conditioning that the, that was done to them. I'm like, why is this, why does this hit so hard to me? The key part was like where they had to listen to lectures of like the Chinese, you know, nationalist philosophies and stuff.

And there were people with sticks who are poking them to stay awake. I'm like, that's exactly what they did at camp sunrise. Yes. Yes. And then the struggle like, , you would be prosecuted by your whole team PR your whole group of prisoners that would like prosecute you to reeducate you for your benefit.

So you could be part of the people's you, you know, group. And it was like, this is too much. This is, this is exactly what we went through. Oh, oh. I looked into the author, Robert J Lifton. He actually first intercepted Korean war vets, uh, American POWs in South Korea in 1952, the same time bohi PAC and moon were all getting together.

And so he studied these people and I think that's when he started. Building a philosophy for thought reform and mind control and like building, okay, you need sleep deprivation, you need food deprivation. You need to reeducation, you need to breakdown cult of confession. He wrote all of this down in that time period.

And I, wow. I like after reading this book, I'm like, did moon did moon and his intelligence operations, like get a hold of these formulas because it's exactly the same. I I'm sorry. That's oh yeah. Oh, there has to have been some note taking from mal like, absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's weird. But reading that book anyways, what you're telling me, it, it, it reminded me of one of the, the, um, the Chinese, um, survivors that Robert J Lifton interviewed was like, he was born into a family, like upper hierarch, like a upper aristocratic family.

He had so much pressure since a young age to lead, to be God's chosen person to lead. Um, and to, yeah, he just given a lot of power at a young age. It can be beneficial, but at the same time, he said that no child can leave or grow up from that amount of pressure and power unscathed. And you were high. You, you had so much, especially being born close to the moon family from a seven, from an early couple.

And you were, I mean, I looked up to you. I, I did, I, I couldn't help it. You were one of the older second gen, one of the first older second gen that I met and I did look at you special. And like, I feel like, yeah, that kind of. Responsibility at such a young age, you can't escape that without, without some type of hyper vigilance or yeah.

Like damage like you were talking about. Yeah. Yeah. And, and like just, uh, you know, ha talking with other people who grew up in the movies online, like it made me realize all that, like listening to their stories and even in podcasts and everything. Yeah. That it's, you know, the unification church is another, oops.

Is another society just like anyone else's, it's like, , there's the people who are respected and, like one, one second generation called my family, the Kennedys of the unification church. It's kind of interesting. Uh, um, but yeah, like my parents were artists and like, I think they were kind of, it made, 'em very charismatic for lectures, but it also made them like, in certain circles, they, they did say like they had problems with certain things or, , One, one kind of touching story is like, , you know, they have the eight day ceremony after a new child is born.

Uh, this one family who lived in New York, , that they were, I guess, kind of close to, they, uh, bought their own property. Like not within the unification church grid or like their cluster of properties. They brought the father bought his own house. And because of that, you know, the, the UN church leadership, they said that her, his daughter was denied an eight day ceremony.

So my parents actually just had their own for him. So like, you know, that just goes to show, like, I, you know, I do feel like there are those stories with our parents and I wish that, you know, there was enough trust and like understanding of the complexity to be able to like, talk about stuff like that.

But there's, there's just so much loaded, you know, stuff. And like, I, I think it's just really hard to talk with parents unless like you get one like alone, , away from the church or, or they're already questioning, like they have to be in a place where they can't like, just clinging on to like, you know, this identity or this group, or like this, if they keep going to church functions and they have to keep saving face or like, keep those relationships up, you know, , if you get one of them in like a place where they have to kind of speak for themselves and account for themselves, then I think, you know, I, I'm not pushing anyone to do that.

That's really hard. I have a hard time doing that, even though my parents left, like they left in the nineties, but they're still, well, they're still very far. Right. And, it's been really hard ever since Trump got elected, you know? And now that Biden's president, like, you know, it's not as bad of, it's still there.

I think, I think they're still in, QAN on, you know, they get the Q and on Japan stuff. Uh, I believe, um, I don't know. I don't, I don't want to say anything definitive. They haven't talked too much about it, but there's been enough science. But, , I, again, I like to speak to the complexity of things.

, I think in any good movie, good movies are not about like, , someone who chooses the right, uh, group to be in. And then like, you know, because they're in the right group, they win. No good movies are about people in trying situations, problematic groups. You know, why do people like to watch things about cults it's because how does a person interact with the system they're in, you know, as problematic as it can be and is oppressive, how do they personally win and like, get through that.

And that's kind of how I see people in the church, you know, , certain parents or certain just members in general, it's like, this is, this is the arena that we were given. And how do you deal with that? You know? So I don't like it when people are like, why don't you just leave? I mean, it's so much better everywhere else.

It's like, yeah, but your brain has been so. You know, um, influence to just live in this world and to see everything else is this cliff that you're jumping off, you know, with everybody being in, talking more, I'm hearing the question. Why didn't you just leave less? Have you, have you realized, oh yeah. You've noticed that media too.

Yeah. Yeah. Starting to realize that. And I love that cuz it's yeah. If, if you're born in the water, you don't realize you're in water. You don't even know what air is. That's kind of what it was like being born in cult. Or if you were born into a family with, you know, domestic violence, that's normal, you don't know there's any other way.

That's just normal. It's like, yeah. Yeah. I think that dynamic is becoming common knowledge. It's like, I I'm glad that all the activists, I just wanna say thank you for, and, and Jen and all the other activists out there that are, are normalizing yourself and thank you and myself that are, you know, I'm, I'm hearing that question less it, so, so thank you for your work.

Yeah. But, but there are still some of those offshoots there's like that one. I don't know. There's some brand. I think we talked about it once it was called, like the cult, the cult of clean or something. I forgot. I don't know the exact name, but they, they had this like funny culty commercial. It's like, when you join our cult, you get all these environmentally safe cleaning products.

I'm like I'm for the cause. But not the marketing. That's terrible. You're these are traumatized. People like do not mess with traumatized people and like their. Like what, what I always attribute it to make it like understandable to people is like, remember how we used to treat drug addicts, like criminals and like monsters.

, now we know that it's attached to things like mental illness, you know, addiction's a disease. And like, we try to be more understanding, you know, that's kind of where the cult cult members are, you know, it's like an addiction. And like, you know, it's something that,, created harm that they were not aware of.

And they were just doing their best and they were trying to get through their day and everything, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and poking fun at cults for commercial is very disingenuous to survivors. It's very confusing. It's minimize, we already minimize the, what we've been through. So I've been seeing it on a commercial is like, oh yeah, it's not that big of a deal.

yeah. That's so nice. It's awful. You just shove it back down, but yeah. Okay. Yeah. But, but I'll balance that with saying like, I I've actually like in like a Facebook group, I, I, I mentioned to, uh, Paige Wesley, one of the, , hosts of cult podcast, Um, like, you know, that's a podcast hosted by comedians.

So of course they, they joke about it and stuff, but they just do tons of research and like, I feel like they joke about the right things and they get mad about they, they do get mad where like, you know, it's important to get mad. I mean, there's a few parts where I'm like, okay, that's like a little too much, but I think like in general, like they do have the empathy enough, like to talk about it and be able to joke about certain things, you know, um, that members can laugh, you know, with, um, but yeah, you have to do like the crazy amount of research to have the like competence to be able to go there.

And I think they get that and like, I really appreciate that. Yeah. So I guess I'll go back to this question from like an hour ago. I have so many other questions, but yeah, let's do it. my gosh. Uh, yeah, so yeah, I did STF, like I think what it was was okay, so we, yeah, we moved to Seattle in the early nineties, but you know, and that whole time we were drifting away from the church, we stopped going to like the main church.

We had our own little. Veteran older family members cuz the older family members weren't going to that church anymore. Either. They're all like over it. They're like, ah, those guys are all, they think the church is blah, blah, blah, blah. We know how it really is and how it changed over the years. These are the old sages of the church from like the 7, 7, 7 blessing.

But my sister did STF, you know, STF is again the labor trafficking program. You live in a church center after college for a year, maybe more. And uh, I think part of the reasons she chose it is cuz she's like the only girl in my family. And , I don't want to impose this on her. This is just my thoughts.

But I thought, you know, my mom really overcompensates from my dad to the point where he wasn't even around, you know, for us growing up. He's not really, you know, I think he, he feels like he's doing good and everything, but I think, you know, one thing I call the unification church is the church of bad dads.

It's, it's very patriarchal. It's very misogynist, to where moms have to do everything, you know, at home and like, you know, culturally, that's also a Japanese thing, but not to that extreme. , and uh, have to overcompensate for the dad who's like in other countries for months and. Doesn't raise the kid pretty much at all.

So that's kind of how I felt like it, it happened to my family. Again, it's, it's kind of widespread in the church. I know many other families like this, especially if they have an immigrant mom who moved to America for the church and doesn't really have a life outside of it locally. So like they're coerced to just be that identity and feel empowered and validated in that identity only, you know, and I feel really bad for my mom in that way.

Um, so she goes to the closest thing outside of it after the church was like Fox news and like, you know, far at propaganda anyway. Um, so I feel like my sister was kind of imitating my mom and like feeling like she has to like save, save the family, you know? And like I was the next one down from her. So she was always kind of my big sister.

She was showing me stuff. She was almost like a second mom. And I know you have talked about in your podcast with other like women, uh, on the podcast about feeling like a mom to your brothers, you know, like the kid, children, raising children, you know, that's like a thing in the church. Uh, so she was kind of like that with me too.

, and she got me to go to STF also cuz uh, I think we just weren't ready to leave and it's all we knew. And you know, in, in any cult, I think you are taught to value the cult more than your individual family, you know, your, your taught to value. And plus the cult is the provider. It's the one that plans events for you.

It's the one that has these things, where you have these friend get togethers, you know, and the parents don't really have as much power over their kids. Like a normal family, cuz most families in the world, I guess I'll call them independent families. They don't have that. It's just the parents, you know, and maybe the next one up is the president, but there's no relationship or coercion there, like depending on what country you're in.

So as you know, Margaret singer, , noted cult scholar, , put it it's like parents are middle managers, you know, for the cult leader who is the be all end all for the kids. So, you know, it's like, if parents are mad about their kids, not respecting them, like really try and get perspective that way, you know, that's, and I'm not on one side or the other first gen and second gen have like their gripes and there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of, , frustration between them because of different viewpoints.

But um, anyway, yeah. Sorry. I just have to say like our parents were infant infant. I can't even say the word infantalized yeah. Infantalized yeah. Perfect. Yeah, because of the, even the lingo true parents, then what are your parents? They're true. Their children of true parents. And then what are we, we're all on the same level then.

And so there's a lot of, um, dodged responsibility within the family. There was a lot of, um, kids raising kids. what's that called? Uh, parentification. Yeah. So yeah, just with the, the rhetoric. And so it sounds like, and then also our moms were taken away by the church. So even though there's a church of bad dads, like it was a church of absent moms as well.

So really, really what, where else did you have to go? But STF, it was structure. Like, I don't remember having a five year goal besides getting blessed cuz the church would come up with new missions every year, every like on the job of a hat. So we lived really by like day to day, whatever the movement wanted to do, but sorry to cut you off.

I just, I said that was important. No, totally. And then I know a lot of second generations who go to the army, you know, for the same reason, it's like they just crave structure. They're like, I don't know what to do. Or like, you know what, uh, and it's hard like when you, you grow up in it and it it's almost like, yeah, now they have this thing called the seven year course with generation peace academy GPA, which is, you know, almost the same thing as S STF.

And I think they wanna stay in because like I remember after leaving STF, when I was done with it, I was like, wait, now I have to like decide that what I want personally, as an individual is gonna lead the way for my career. It's it's terrifying. I would like dove into books and counselors. I was like help.

I can't, I gotta figure me out and make money and survive based on what I want. All of a sudden, which is something no one ever asked me or help me develop. That's overwhelming. Yeah. That's okay. Yeah. I, I wanna just comment on the seven year course, , there's been some research by scholars in the church.

I was reading up on carp and they targeted initially. They were like the best age group to recruit is 18 , because that's the most active, you can have the most influence on their life course. Also, your brain's not as developed until your 25, your, your prefrontal cortex doesn't fully develop. So the seven year course I wanna say is based off of biology, as well as mind control and thought reform.

Because from 18, when you go to SCF to 25, when you're doing your seven year course, which is the designated course, you can form somebody for a lifetime to be a productive member of the unification church, with the goal of world peace and unification. You can have them choose, you can choose their career for you.

I mean like, you know what I mean? So it's, it's very smart. This isn't a dumb cult. This is a very, very smart, organized, systemic cult. And, um, I felt the same way. Like we were very much formed on our STF years to be very public thinking, never abuse, public money, always do things for the service of others and, and living for the sake of others.

That was the rhetoric. So yeah. When you got out, I don't know. I, I remember having like a lot of panic when I got out of, OLT not knowing, like if my decision to go to school for this was selfish or if I was making the right choices to have a family, like, what do you like? I know you're very active speaker.

Um, has, yeah. How has that influenced you? Um, well, when I, when I think about, yeah, right after I left SDF, , and that that's a story in itself too. Um, I've told this on some other podcasts, but, um, like my mom always, she was always really good about Christmas. Like is the time the family got together is when my dad came home and stuff, you know, because honestly I would only see my dad, like two or three weeks out of the, out of the year when I was a little kid.

, so she wanted me to come back for Christmas. Like I did ano a second year of STF just cuz I was like, again, like. Kind of peer pressured into it and, um, avoiding, you know, having to choose my career course or whatever, but, uh, like, yeah. And she got on the phone with me and I resisted. I was like, no, I wanna stay.

And da, da, da. And you know, um, looking back, I remember my, uh, my team leader for my fundraising team, uh, was a Japanese member who was like, guilting me. He was like, you know, none of the other kids are going back home for Christmas and you know, so he, he, so this is where, you know, when people say STF is like a re indoctrination program for second generation, like right there, that's it, you know?

Um, and, and when I told, like, I called her once and I told her, no, I'm not flying back home. And she argued with me. She really wanted me to come home. And I think she also was like, oh no, this is the carp shit that I grew up with. And or that I was in the church and faced. And like I had to like walk away from, um, so she was fighting hard.

And, I remember seeing that team leader, like, he, like, I know this is audio podcast, but he put his hands over his mouth. He was like, and smiled. He was so proud of me that I was fighting my mom to stay in this fucking cult. So like, anyway. Yeah. And, but luckily my mom, she called again and she successfully got me to come back and I, I, I felt so like, Defeated.

And like, for like, even like, probably like up to a year or two after I was like, should I go back to STF? Should I go back to, even when I was going to Bridgeport, I was like, oh, like any problem I had or any situation? I was like, it's because I didn't finish STF. You know, like it really, yeah. Set in deep. I mean, there's some serious trauma there.

So I mean, you know, I learned how to work hard. I learned that I have the capacity to like stay up all night and work or whatever, like, you know, um, so I got that out of, it became more of a workaholic confidently and I became more ambitious as a person. Like, you know, I think it helps in that way, but it's very toxic also.

Like it, it gutted out any kind of sense of personal space. And like, I remember going to a concert for the first time after it was like tribe called quest with the Beastie boys. I was like, holy crap, this is awesome. Like New York hip hop show. And, um, I didn't feel anything. I was like numb from my like head to toe.

Like I just, I didn't feel anything at this concert. I just was so detached. Like from the kid, I was like, who used to watch shows at eight o'clock every night. And like, it, it just ripped me out of culture. And, uh, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I feel like people listening to this who went to SDF, who didn't really look back critically are gonna be like, oh, come on.

It was great. It like helped me out so much. And I'm more ambitious. I take more risks and yeah, you get that too. I think, especially as like an artist, like it was not good. Like it, it, um, it, it just, and I like coming back to my friends and , I lost a friend cuz I, oh my God. I just cringe. When I think about this, like I, to like she was, she called me on the phone.

I kind of had a crush on her two and like, I just went on about like, oh, we're living in the last days, you know? Oh we're. And she's like, what do you mean by that? And I was like, oh, uh, well, you know, I think that I, I said something, you know, biblical or divine principal E anyway. Um, yeah. And she never called again.

uh, we had kept in touch through SDF. Like she was writing like letters and you know, and I thought she was really cool. She was also mixed race like me. And like, anyway, that sucked, oh my God, I know this is terrible. Yeah. This is you're the first person to touch on the, it's kind of like a withdrawal or like this.

I mean, SDF is a huge psychological, like it's a psych, it's a, it's a psychological cult. Like that's a whole category in and of itself just that you weren't in touch with. Like the feelings of pleasure. Same with me. Like they, they warned you. They warned me on S O well T they were like, okay, this is the last workshop we're gonna have.

Remember to keep your faith strong, build your life of faith. It's gonna be a big Rocky test. When you leave, you're gonna feel there's gonna be a withdrawal from the spiritual side and God, this is gonna be a big test. Um, a lot of people like it's like a detox and, um, they, they warn you about it and they say, dig deeper into your life of faith.

And they do. They're like, you're get up at seven, you know, get up at seven, do your hun decay. Even if you're by yourself, still, still go deeper. It's gonna be shaky ground. But also I lost a sense of pleasure. Like you went to a concert and you couldn't even enjoy it. No, it just cuz I felt so. Yeah. I felt so detached from everything.

And like, you know, I learned later in brain science, like, you know, your neural pathways physically change to like create new pleasure centers. If, if you, if you achieve these goals, then you get pleasure. So to me, like in my brain, I was still like, if I make enough money for the cults that I said I was gonna make in the beginning of the day, then I can feel pleasure.

You know, that's what, that was the new pleasure source. Oh my God. You're right. That was the dopamine hit because we did wake up at six and they're like, okay, what's your internal goal. Okay. You wanna be less selfish? Okay. What's your external goal? Oh, break $200. Okay. So now you're correlating, um, motivation, which is a huge dopamine release with goals and happiness.

It totally rewired. You do that for a year. Do that for a year. All you're gonna think about is money for, for internal satisfaction. Yeah. I think, I think the hardest part for me is yeah, that's, that's a great observation. Um, the hardest part for me was like, um, just going, uh, Shit. I , as I was saying, I, I forgot I, this might be a trauma thing too.

I have, I, I do tend to lose short term memory. Like anyone abuse amne it's abuse, amnesia. You don't, you have to keep, you know, SCF. I think people look at with rose colored glasses, like, oh, remember all the times we bathe in the ocean that was so glorious. Remember all those bread donations that we got when people, you know, they were nice to us, , like remember sleeping.

I remember sleeping on the beach. Like that was so much fun, but like yeah. It was still awful. A homeless person. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It was still awful like staff infection, but it's a bonding experience. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And you grew, you opened up, you learned how to approach strangers in the middle of the Walmart parking lot.

Like , mm-hmm , uh, you you're not shy anymore. Like yeah. There was some good things that happened, but also yeah, your, our brains, like, I can't even remember half this shit. Yeah. Yeah. I, I mean, it was so dangerous too. , but yeah, what I was gonna say before is that, , when I read about it, uh, when I read about, you know, the effects of a cult, like, , there's that book take back your life by Ola and Madeline Tobias, , you know, way later I read about that in like my mid, late thirties and it talked about PTSD and I was like, oh, I thought that was just a military thing.

And it was like, no, what I experienced was PTSD. It, spelled it out. It was like, you know, do you not have feelings in these areas anymore? I'm like, kind of, yeah. , and it's like, oh, it is. I mean, SGF, is it, it it's a lot like a military bootcamp and, , you know, self denial, you know, that's, that's it. And yeah, for, , another documentary I interviewed for recently, , or like a docu-series, , they had me focus on how it was like militant, you know, in the 1995, , camp sunrise workshop in New York, they had a week called like hell training.

And there was like, I think it was like the nephew of Reverend moon. There was a guy named sun on moon and he was leading it. And he was like, he always had his hands behind his back, like, okay, we're gonna do da, da, da, like kind of like a drill Sergeant. And he just, he was just soaking up, like the charismatic, he had this like charismatic smile of like, yeah, like you're gonna go through hell and I'm gonna like, you know, I'm gonna train you to be soldiers of God.

And we had to do all these like physical things, like rolling around on the like basketball court in the gravel and like stuff, some stuff was hurt, you know, like I've heard other second or people grew up in the movies, like who describe it as torture. I'm like, yeah, it was kind of torture it, you know, it's that.

And also you can compare it to like hazing, you know, with fraternities. Yeah. It was very macho, patriarchal, you know, proving ground kind of thing. And then, you know, we judged each other by that. And like, except for the smart ones who were like, this is dumb. Like I'm just here. Cuz my parents are here. Like I respect the hell out of them now.

yeah. Looking back on those rebellious kids. No, what you're saying with the, we were military. Okay. We were a psychological cult. It was also a military cult. Like even the language Kimbe nobody says ch I was talking to Korean and I was like, chat. Is that like a thing? They're like, what the hell? Like, why are you that's a military thing.

I was like, what? That's what we were told. Like every Mor ch

like, like K bears, like what the fuck? And Monay, like, come on. All the language is so weird and loaded. If you talk to a native Korean speaker, it's very military. Yeah. It's moon's military fetish. I mean, he was born in, in North Korea before it was like, you know, before the 30th parallel. And, um, but maybe it was still kind of militant there.

It's like, where did he get all this? And like, uh, I don't know. Well, I know it's, it's from trauma from, uh, you know, the north Korean prison camp. That's where he learned how to close basic things. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, what the remnants of that. That type of structure echo in the unification church. And we've all got psychological damage that mimics, you know, what we're reading in these books about PTSD war vets, um, north Korean war POWs, like, because moon came from that place, like, and then replicated the culture to lots of us.

It's just, yeah. It's, it's bizarre how similar mm-hmm our minds and our trauma is to POWs prisoners war. Absolutely. And I think, you know, I think that's why he did so well in America too. And he probably helped create this, uh, atmosphere of, you know, now we're, I mean, the whole reason I became a whistleblower is cuz like Trump was running for president and I was like, uhoh this is the same wave I felt in the cults like the same far right propaganda.

And like this charismatic leader is way more powerful than people think. I didn't think he was gonna become president, but you know, I don't know when, when pusy riot said that, you know, the same thing happened with, and they're like take this seriously. Like we all treated Putin like a joke and until it became empower, I was like, oh no, Trump is gonna become president.

You know, like anyway. Um, but what I was saying with that is like, you know, in America we have like the prison industrial complex, the, the military industrial complex. Yes. You know? Yes. We have this like, , What I heard it described as was like, you know, why, why are men afraid to be emotional and like stuff like that, you know, in this country.

And it's like, because we're preparing them to be, you know, just these soldiers and, you know, it it's, it's like when you have too much power at the top and they treat everyone like minions and like, and, uh, yeah, it's that America is the most, , religious of the wealthy nations. Uh, I didn't know that until recently too, there there's like a pew research article from 2018 that talks about that.

, there's so much religion in such a wealthy country where, you know, we could, we do have a lot of good educational facilities, but I don't know, you know, and the reason I question how much moon has an impact on it is because perfect metaphor is that he gave millions to, , Jerry Falwell's Liberty university, which is this like far right.

You know, I don't know what they're teaching, but it's like probably similar to the moons. It's probably this like alternate spiritual timeline that denies a lot of America's, you know, wrongdoings. Like, I'm pretty sure they don't really teach much about slavery there, , the Japanese internment camps, , that's in these American nationalist narratives.

I usually see them wash over that or saying it wasn't so bad or, you know, worst case is like Ben Carson who's black is like the slaves had. Or he didn't say slaves the immigrants or whatever. He said had a difficult life at first from Africa. I'm like, everyone was like, wow, you're a brain surgeon and someone needs to operate on you, bro.

Oh my God. , yeah, Jerry Fallwell, I think we got like 2.5 or 3.5 million and his name comes up a bunch with yeah. With a lot of influence that moon had. Yeah. I'll just, sorry. I'll just add real quick. Um, he also is credited as the person who brought religion into politics, like. When they make policies certain way.

He's the one who like, and, and I wonder if moon had to do with that too, if he was like, this is what they're doing to you, Jerry, and your people like, cuz he was, this was in like the fifties when moon came here. Oh, wow. But um, like, but I don't know. That's no, I'm not gonna explain here. I mean, no, what you're saying is like yeah, once moon got Jerry Falwell, like he would like, as soon as prosecution started against, uh, the unification church as a criminal organization, he would be like, no religious freedom.

And then like everybody would be like, don't prosecute the Moonies. They're just, it's just a new world, religion. It's just, it's just, he paid for lip service and, and Jerry Falwell was right behind him. So I mean mm-hmm, , he is very influential. Yeah. And uh, I, I think it's called the religious freedom foundation or, or something like that.

I have to look this up. Sounds so familiar, but um, yeah. Uh, it's weird because okay. This is on the Scientology website. I was just doing some research and Dan Fefferman, who was like a prominent church member from like Maryland or DC. Like he is the leader of the religious freedom foundation and the Scientology website has a page for that.

So it's like all these cults, like they don't even care. They're just like working together to, to fight against intelligence, really they're anti intelligence and they're just like, oh my God, they're fighting against things that are happening and are proven by experts because they want to have this heroic narrative, you know, it's awful.

Yeah. It's just rich people trying to protect their money with religion because they know that religion is very sacred to people and that's kind of how I see it, you know, and maybe, but maybe they believe they're, they're so diluted. I mean, yeah. I don't think, I don't think these people are, are rich. Like Neil's Sloan is not that rich.

Actually I looked at, looked up. I looked them up. He's they're not that rich now. Like you would think they'd be on par with the moons after years and years of working on those missions. But I think they're just idealists. Yeah. Well, when you get old in the church, then you lose your money. Right. Unless you're like a Korean leader or someone who is in a position to reap the, you know, harvest of money from other people of the businesses.

Yeah. Yeah. So I think, yeah, sadly, a lot of people you, you know, because they D they never learn financial competence, and it's all magical thinking of spiritual this or that money comes because God like, yeah. When you get old and you can't work anymore, or like, you lose your position of power because you're getting old.

Like they just, yeah. They boot people right out. And they're like, all right, who's next? Or like, oh, let's have this Korean leader take over because he's from like the chosen nation, you know? Like, and yeah, it's also gotta be hard now that we're generations deep to leave the moon organization. If your entire family and yourself depend on them for your wealth and your income, it's like, how, how do you feel safe to leave?

Like, would you jeopardize somebody else in your family by leaving and talking? And it's just so sticky. Yeah. Yeah. And like, you know, my family, we, I mean us siblings, we have to send money to my parents every month. Like after they left, cuz my dad paints murals, you know, I mean good on him for, doing the art thing after, uh, you know, we moved, but yeah, it's, it's such a crazy story.

Five kids in the. Moving to Bellevue Washington, which is like, again, the Beverly Hills of Seattle. And , my dad wants to suddenly do art to like make a living for this family. And like, yeah, I think I, I, I was talking with my sister recently. She said we went up to like over $80,000 in credit card debt. So thank God.

There were like these like one 800, like nonprofits that help you pay down your debt that were like, there were commercials for that. And that's how they did it, you know? And we had, you know, food from a food bank and like, I don't know. I think maybe, maybe a lot of members, like before there was a GoFundMe helped out my parents, like, I don't know how they made it through.

I imagine there was a lot of, yeah, like sympathy for them, you know, like there was a lot of solidarity with, with members or certain generations of members who, you know, I think with my parents again, they were like respected. So, from the early days, , that's my theory, but also the $80,000 in debt and, you know, just financial incompetence and my mom is like, don't ever get a credit card.

They'll trick. You did it. That's, that's what she taught us about credit cards when we were kids, cuz she fell into so many because she was vulnerable and she needed money. So, you know, my end, she was, you know, my mom's handicap, she's in a wheelchair, she was stuffing envelopes. She was like, you know, doing all the jobs that she could.

Because my dad's income was unsteady as an artist and it it's so insane to think about, but you know, like we kids, we just paid for our own college. We went to a lot of student loan debt. A lot of them went to the university of Washington, cuz it was like, if you were already a resident, then it's cheaper.

Tuition me. I I guess maybe cuz of St. STF. I was like, now I'm this like super ambitious person that deserves to like go all the way. And I went to New York, well Bridgeport and then New York Bridgeport just start and like, you know, ended up way more debt than they did. It took till I was in my late thirties to pay it off.

But Ugh. And that's another whole conversa it's messed up too. I appreciate what Elizabeth Warren has been, you know, fighting against these corrupt, like student loan companies. Like Navian Navient man, screw them, man. I hope they burn to the ground. Like anyway, it's just like exploitation out of exploitation has been like my whole like, you know, childhood and young adulthood.

And now I'm like for the first time ever I bought new furniture, like it arrived last week. I'm like, wow, that's a huge step in my forties now. So yeah. well, you weren't prepared, you weren't ever prepared for financial, you know, competency, like exploitation was the name of the game growing up Moony. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, to be fair it's it is kind of, it happens in a lot of ways. And especially in American society, unfortunately the wealth gap is so wide. I'm very sensitive to things like that because of having experienced it. So I really try to make, you know, the right decisions. My air conditioner is like low emissions for like environmental reasons.

Like I always look for a recycle bin, you know? Well, that's also living in Seattle, the evergreen state, but, um, and yeah, just, um, you know, I, I try not to contribute to companies, um, that are, uh, you know, part of the damage, but are so ubiquitous. Like, you know, I bank with like a union supporting bank and I encourage people to bank with credit unions, which it's right under our noses, everyone, like it's, there's no shareholders with credit unions.

Like whoever contributes, like you're the shareholders, so there's no agenda and there's no fees and there's no lawsuits. Like you won't find lawsuits, look up any major bank on Google and the word lawsuit, and you'll find stuff within the past month. I promise you, like, it's a constant, like, yeah. But it's just so ubiquitous.

It's always been how this country, you know, was like, we started with slaves and we've been spoiled ever since, you know, I think we just bind it in other ways now in prison or like, you know, sweat shops overseas, we have to become disciplined and do our own work if we really wanna like, you know, um, work things out like that.

That's how I see things. Thank you for that capitalist soapbox. I like that. , it's from experience, you know, so, I mean, geez. My dad went from world missionary, colonizing countries to leaving and becoming an artist. Like, what do you expect? he is, wait, he left the church and also became an artist or was he an artist in the church?

Um, he did like, he did like calligraphy of like, if you go to some old members' houses, they'll have my dad's calligraphy of like Reverend moon's words. but then he did calligraphy of like more, you know, Theodore Roosevelts or Martin Luther king or, you know, he expanded, um, I don't think he was ever totally in the church.

He actually like told me in the early seventies he had his doubts, but he just, he, he didn't, you know, he, I think he was too involved. He didn't have much to fall back on. He came from a poor family. He grew up as a foster kid for like most of his childhood. Wow. And I think he just, you know, it it's like, how can you say no?

It's like, you have stability for the first time in your life, you know, thanks to thanks to this human trafficking empire. And it all looks utopian. So, you know, and it is just hard. Um, yeah. Five kids too, with a foreign wife, like you feel kind of like you can't, you kind of gotta stay put or everything's gonna fall apart.

Yeah. Yeah. It's and it's interesting his story. , so when I was in San Francisco, , I, I lived in San Francisco from like 2009 to two th to 2021. And, , he came down there one time. They had kind of reunion with like the veteran members who again are kind of like the oldest members are like pseudo members.

Some of 'em maybe are still in it, more in it than others, but you can tell by the look on their face that they're like Sage and like, they're over, it they're like enough with all this like extremism crap. Like, I don't know. But, but, but also like some of them, one of 'em was talking about, well, I think the tea party is Bo at the time, you know, which is the Koch brothers, creation of a radical group for like far right conservatives anyway.

So a lot of 'em lean politically, right. Not all of them, but, , anyway, they were having a dinner and they invited me and I was like, at the time I was like, kind of investigative. So I was like, oh, excellent. You know, like, so I went to this dinner with like the church veterans from San Francisco in the sixties, you know?

And, it was at this house where they had their kind of like local leader, Papasan cha as they called him. I think his name was like sun Hawk, cha I don't know. , and mama sancha, who was like his wife, and they're also kind of like, okay, well to give you, , an idea of what they're like.

Because pop San chase seemed to kind of have his own thing and like, , he over there and my dad felt like he was actually in his group, you know? And like, he, he was not as militant, I guess, according to my parents, he was a little more kind of hippie dippy and like, you know, low key, um, moon didn't like that.

So someone ratted him out, another local leader and moon came and broke it up in 1971. Yeah. He was like, you know, you, your family moved to this state, you guys moved to this state. Um, so my family moved to DC at the time where I was born and then moved to New York after I interviewed, um, Steve cap, who was in the Moonies in the seventies.

And he said he went to a Booneville retreat up in, in California that was owned by Papasan. I call him Papasan, Troy, but Papa cha and Oni. Durst. Yeah. Most Durst. So those were, those were the leaders of that region. Yeah. And they kind of competed like Durst and the chase. Yeah. So that's who moon broke up?

Uh, no, he broke, he broke up, like there, there was a community of the chase and they were in San Francisco. It is the bay area. And then across the bay, in the, in the east bay, there was, uh, owning Dursts, um, congregation, you know, so like they, yeah. So I don't know the, so there, yeah, it seems like there was some competitiveness and, um, anyway, so interesting.

Yeah. Uh, and then that happened and yeah, it's weird. It's like, there's like cults within the cold thing. Maybe moon was like, there's too much power here. Like I'm I feel like I'm not, I'm not getting it all. Y'all are not bowing down to me enough. Like break it up. yeah, exactly. Like I, I read this thing, you know, Michael Mickler who acts kind of a documentary of, he, he, he kind of, uh, records the unification church history, and he's also, again, like kind of a veteran member who's kind of over it.

So he actually documents it in, in a somewhat critical way, which is pretty amazing. Um, I tend to believe it as much, even though he's still, I guess, on paper, a church member. Um, and he talked about how pop sancha was the, he was the guy, he went around Japan first and then, and he was the one who brought like communal living to the unification church, so compounds and stuff like that.

And he was like, very much an innovator, just like pretty much like everyone who made the church. Good. And like, you know, there's also, what's her name? Oh God, what's her name? She wrote the original divine principle, young UN young and Kim. Yeah, young and Kim, like, she was an innovator of a lot of things in the church and she made it kind of like, feel good.

And she started out, I think in Eugene, Oregon was like the first landing of the American unification church. And like, she, I don't know. I guess they moved to the bay area from there. I don't know that whole history, but she also made a good, and she wrote the original text of the book of the unification church to divine principle.

And moon just took credit for all of that. You know, like, he's just like, this is mine. So people, you know, attribute a lot of things to moon, but you know, he's a con man, like it's true. He's, he's a con man. So this is what they do best pause right here and insert some information about young and Kim cuz she's a key figure.

She was a professor at AOL university. She did a lot for moon. So we'll just, I'll just put a little flip in here cause I think that's important maybe. Yeah. And maybe you can put this in your show notes, but uh, I was kind of taken aback that one of the hosts of, uh, cult podcast in his episodes about the Moonies, um, this guy, Armando.

Oh, love him. Yeah. He's great. He's worries. Uh, he, in, in a lot of that episode he was mad for her. You know, he kind of like wrapped a narrative around her and he even wrote a blog post called the tragedy of young moon, Kim, I think. Yeah. That playing off the tragedy of the six Mary's thing. Yeah. And like it's, it's like, wow.

That's I mean that's true, confused, minor details mixed up. It's it's so hard to get. 'em all perfect. But like it's great. It's cool that he like was really standing up for this person, you know, like, yeah. That's what I mean. When I say in that podcast, they get mad about the right things, you know? And like they don't, they're not like sociopath, not sociopathic.

They're not like removed from the empathy of it, you know? Oh yeah. Okay. Now you're bringing up something in the very beginning of this interview, you'd said something about moon, getting connections with the largest insurance company. North in Korea at the time. And that's what really trampoline him into success.

That was Andy Cho's family, Sam Park's mom. Wow. Moon's illegitimate child. So moon wanted to marry into this family for money, made it providential something about the Bible and then had Sam. And that was his claim to billions. Um, so that was him cleansing the womb of yeah. Of the two sisters. Yeah. In order to have that.

Yeah. So that's um, PIRO in a nutshell before the unification church was a book called, um, Change of blood lineage and ritual sex in the unification church by Kirsten L Nebel anyway, um, you can Google it and yeah, it talks about how, like there moon had weird fringe sex cults, where he was like the leader.

And there were a few of these different group fringe groups in Korea where even sometimes there was a female leader. Um, where you had to have sex with a leader in order to be in the group and be saved or whatever. So that's where the unification church started originally. And that's why we call it a sex cult.

Yeah, man, the more we talk about it, it's a military cult. It's a psych psychological cult, a sex cult, but really just naming these key figures. Like if you tie it all together and we haven't tied it all together just too much, there's just too much, but we've named so many great jump, like starting points for people who are curious about the real history of the unification church.

I mean, the names that we have dropped, if you just, you could tell a whole story about every single person we just talked about. Yeah. And that's why there's not a definitive documentary, cuz it would have to, it was just people probably just get exhausted and they're like, I can't do that. yeah. Cuz it's not about moon.

It's about the people he had near him that established, I mean Papa Che young UN Kim David, Kim bohi P and his entire family. Like these guys are huge, significant figures that have been kept in the shadows. So the real, the real agenda of the whole moon, organization's kind of still, I feel like the moon family is still just a distraction from the real story.

Right. It's crazy. Oh yeah. That's a great way to put it. It's like the cult is the distraction. it's not, it's secretly a cult. So the cult is a distraction, but, but it's it's. Yeah, but they feel so confident that they have these public events with like, um, you know, new Gingrich and like Mike Pence and Trump that.

It's like it's so that's how confident they feel. I'm like, you know, like they needs Jesus. That's where, like, I, we were speaking up and like that. Why is this accepted? No, like, don't be jaded about this. This affects you. I think Trump and Pence just spoke again on Han's behalf. Like she's the mother of piece she's doing so much for one piece.

And I'm like, what fucking peace they, they make weapons like they're overfishing the oceans, they're labor trafficking minors. They're forcing marriage, they're sex trafficking of Japanese women and Filipino women. Like people have gone missing after the, the blessing ceremonies from these Asian countries.

Like this is not peace. What peace, what have they actually done? Show me real hard. Evidence of peace. You're just speaking words. That aren't true. Yeah. I mean, it's like, it's a megachurch. It's it's just like, like megachurch make peace. Yeah. Because a bunch of people get together and get excited. Like, is that you can do that with like a comic con or as I've found.

Yeah. Like I've left comic conventions have with the same feelings of after a unification church workshop of like, oh, I'm gonna miss my friends until next year. You know, you can create that. Yeah. In things that aren't, these Brandiose sociopathic world savior, you know, impossible things. Wow. So, wow. I love that.

Yeah. Jesus. Um, I wanted to ask you, I was really touched when you said you kind of felt dead inside after SCF. is that is, is, can we talk about the journey from you feeling dead inside to whatever you're feeling now? Um, I mean, I think that's part of why I'm a whistleblower. just like unfucking. Well, I, I think, yeah, part of me is mad that I lost, I, I felt like I lost something or, or something got suppressed out of me or just like pushed out of me, you know, because of what you said, the 18 to 25 span of like, when it really helps formulate who you are as an adult, like yeah, I do.

I feel used. I feel, um, you know, and I think, and like, I can imagine a lot of people may, maybe someone's listening to this podcast for the first time and hearing me, and they're like, that's not how I feel on STF. I was blah, blah, blah. Like, but you know, I'm in my forties now. And it's, you know, it took a long time to realize that, you know, uh, that this was wrong and that, and, and what it also took was like hanging out with people who just come from normal families with no agendas, except to like raise their kids healthy and like productive and, you know, um, feeling loved and validated.

When I spent time in those families houses during college, I that's, when it, you know, no one had to explain anything. I just saw how the parents were. They knew all the video games and the movies that the kid liked. And I'm like, The kid has so much power, like in this family and in the unification church, you're taught to subjugate your children.

You know, they're the object, you're the subject with parents and, you know, um, it's very authoritarian and, and I just realize like families in the unification church are constantly performing. Like you you're just constantly perform you're this like pseudo you're this character for the cult leader. Like, and, you know, a lot of 'em are gonna listen to this and be like, that's not true, but spend some time away from it spend like a month away from it with people who aren't in the church or in any kind of group like that.

And, you know, the autonomy and just like you can assert your needs and what you want. Like, it's those things that completely on my own in the real world, like I dry up because I can't as easily do those things and it's hard. And so like, I even need to just be around people like that in order to feel like that's okay to be, to survive as like an individual in the world.

So, you know, I think that's something I got, um, just learning from these groups and it even like, I don't have kids and I don't really want, honestly, I think I'm too kind of traumatized to have kids. Um, I've never had a model of someone who balances work and family, so I'm too nervous about that to have kids.

Like, I don't, I feel like I'm gonna be a workaholic and I don't want to pass that down. So I, I just,, I just wanna spend time in that ether, you know, of just like people who grew up outside of high demand groups and, , yeah, I don't know. , it, it's interesting. Actually, another thing that made me go on this whistleblower road was, , I I'm like I'm really into comedy and I was more into standup comedy, like years past, but, um, I was listening to this, uh, a radio station on iTunes at the time, and it just plays a bunch of different standup comedy clips and one person, one comedian talked about the death of his, of his parents on stage.

And I was like, wow. And he turned into a joke. He was like, I, I don't know who it is to this day. I think it was Christopher Titus, but I, I'm not sure, but he said, um, you know, I remember one night, yeah. The police called me and they said, I'm sorry, but your father died in a car accident. And then, you know, there was like a pause.

And then I was like, how's the car? You know, like, so that was the joke. And I was like, whoa. And, and the whole reason I'm doing this, you know, I mean, it, it was Trump too that made me more public. But even before that, like years before that, um, I decided to investigate more because I was like, well, what's my deepest, darkest secret.

You know, I can tell. And it was like, oh, obvious. I grew up in a cult. And you know, at the time in 2009, I didn't feel like I was, I, I wanted to speak back to media and be like, you guys say it's a cult and it's all this stuff. But like my experience. It was okay. And I have good friends and it was international and like, you know, I wanted to defend it kind of, or just speak to the complexity, you know?

, but I only did like a few weeks of research and I was like, looking through it from a critical lens for the first time. And I was like, this is all messed up. And everything the news said was absolutely true, , looking at it from someone who has no agenda and is just, you know, like just trying to get by and believes in, you know, just autonomy and trusting people and that you don't need something imposed on you in order to correct yourself inherently, which is what a lot of these, you know, religious groups do and it controls people.

So anyway, that's my long winded answer to your question. And I, again, I really appreciate this and it's really awesome to see other people speaking out, um, and you guys like, and that we help each other with research and stuff so that it's not all in one person and, you know, um, yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Teddy.

I, wow. Oh man. For the, I feel like this is another cataclysmic event, the Abe, the Shinzo Abe shooting for moons, young Moonies to investigate kind of like you did like a lot of people wanna defend the church and the culture. , But you kind of, when, when you go into it with an open mind to look into all the connections and all the corruption and all the trafficking, it's, it's undeniable, it's like, oh, okay.

Yeah, we are part of something maybe a little more destructive than we thought. And so I'm really glad we can put this information out there for, I think there's gonna be a new wave of a lot of people leaving and looking for a place to land. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you've been building a large platform for years with all the different podcasts and TV shows that you've done.

So I, I thank you for, for doing that for creating this place and for being inspired to do that. . yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I wouldn't be able to do it or feel as confident without the help of, you know, groups like IXa. Um, I C S a and just, there's a lot of cult scholars out there who are telling me my life back to me.

They're like, did you experience this? It's like, did your mom give away a child? I was like, yes, that's a thing in cults. Like, yeah. It's it is it's they're so simply. Yep. Yep. If you look in the book, um, so Roseanne, Henry, oh yeah, yeah. The therapist that happened to her. Well, it was that the leader coercive took the daughter to like, felt entitled like kind of over time, kind of guilted her into like taking.

Her daughter and then like excommunicated the par well, the parents left when they realized it was a cult. They were like, this is so messed up. Like when they realized what they were made to do. Wow. And, you know, eventually they had a reunion, but it was so hard. , yeah, but that's, that's the level of power that some of these people go to.

That's the length. Um, I know in the church, it's like, it's a little different, cuz it's not just the leaders. It's, you know, there's a lot of, because it's enmeshed, it's like, you're one big family. So you see giving away kids, it's like not a big deal, you know? It's like, ah, if you love someone, give 'em a kid.

But, , from the people who that's happened to, I know that there's so much trauma and I hope that they can get their stories heard and understood. Yeah. Yeah. I, I feel like, um, through talking about all this stuff, it puts it out there. It creates a, it creates like a vision board. So you can finally make sense of all the chaos inside, but I've noticed after talking about this stuff for a year now, is that I'm starting to actually feel feelings instead of used to just intellectualize feelings.

Like, oh, I'm crying. Cuz my body's upset because this happened and that, and that and that and that, and that, and that this has to make sense because there has to be a reason behind these feelings, but now I just, I can feel a feeling and actually be like, oh, this is just a feeling. Oh great. This is, you know, I don't have to make sense of it.

It's just a feeling. I don't know. That's a big, oh, oh yeah. That's huge. Yeah. Just letting the feeling pass through, you know? Yeah. Processing it. I feel like that's a big victory. for yeah. Oh no, absolutely. That's like way to learn to be human, you know, for the, for the first time we have to learn how to be human.

Yeah, exactly. Um, what I see it as is it's kind of funny. It's like, because of this, you know, I see our families is we were raised by a system. We weren't really raised by a family was raised by a system and wow. , uh, and I think in order to feel like it's okay to like release your feelings, you have to feel safe.

You have to feel like people intimately know you in like a structure that acknowledges you and your personality. And so like I recognize that and it hurts to know that like, I feel like I have to put those pieces around me and like build those walls myself in a safe space or just be alone in order to which isn't as validating, you know, to, to release those feelings.

You know, journal writing helps things like that. Having a therapist of course is. But just, yeah, just like that's one of the things that my heart breaks for is just that, you know, you grow up in something that doesn't acknowledge you. And as an adult, you have to live by you. That thing that is developed.

So like, you know, you can always start later, you know, you can I'm I know that I'm like, I'm doing things I enjoy more now that, you know, I still sometimes kind of dress like a teenager, like . , but that's okay. Like, I, I acknowledge that, that, you know, I was raised by a system and I have to discover things about myself a little later, the brain, it, it does have developmental years.

Yes. And it's like, you know, baking a cake once it's baked, when you're an adult, like it's hard to go back and change ingredients, but you know, science also says that the brain's plasticity lasts until you're dead. So yeah, we're very plastic. I, Ooh, man, when you said raised by system, that invalidated feelings, I feel like with the creation of all these podcasts and I just wanna name a few that have really given me the space to feel my feelings because they confirm the realities we grew up in is just the falling out was one of 'em.

I got to feel my anger. I got to see it reflected back at me that mm-hmm , that's valid. That anger is valid Jane Austin culture night with, akin Cox, and Laurel, Laurel Laka. Like that reflects a lot of like some of the humor, , with how odd and abusive the arranged marriages were just kind of just the weird dynamics and, and, and yeah, just all these new activists coming on.

They're, they're creating a space where you can feel your feelings. Like I'm sure plenty of people listen to this podcast and, and can actually start feeling their feelings like reflected back at them from all the different guests as yourself and, and all the other dozens of people that have been on this podcast.

So, wow. You mean it? It's amazing. Yeah. It's kind of sad, but also, you know, it's sad, but true. But like, you know, when we were kids, we had to help each other raise each other, cuz we never knew when our parents were gonna be home and it's like, we're still doing that. yeah. Old patterns. Right. But, but we're also not an island.

Hum. You know? Yeah. People need people. And yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead. Oh, um, yeah, this just another thing I was gonna say was like, I had to wait until I got to a certain agent, you know, psychologically your, your parental instincts kicked in when your brain gets older, like around your thirties or something, you know, there's like different stages of the brain.

So it took me to be like a parent age person to raise myself in those ways that were missing, you know, like, and again, like if my parents ever hear this, like, you know, I, I just want to tell them that, you know, this, this really isn't your fault. Like, you didn't start the group, you weren't, you didn't have the original agenda to have a bunch people join and build this system.

Um, you were in it and it was very powerful. And like, they, like, they want to always tell me like, no, this was our fault. It was us like, stop blaming the group, da, da, da. And it's like, well, you need to study about cults because like, you know, we're coming from different angles. Um, because, and the unification church is gonna blame the members.

So I'm like, you're reflecting that same freaking thing. Um, so anyway, but yeah, it took me into to be an adult to be like, oh, this is what, what it's like to like care for, you know, a personality and help it grow, like to guide me in like, doing that in ways that my parents couldn't because of the coercions of the church.

And I, I do wanna say like, our parents also came from an era of like Jim Crow laws and, and they were raised in the Catholic church that were murdering children. Like, I mean, my parents were raised, raised in abusive Catholic, uh, organizations. And my mom was raised in Japan where women weren't recognized as humans.

So like our parents came from a very oppressive place and they thought they were doing, it sounded nice, world peace, women's rights, women Federation for world peace, mixed race marriages and, and equality. Like, I, I, I can kind of understand the appeal of joining something like the unification church hate to admit it, but like, it was also a different time back then.

Yeah. Yeah. And sixties hippies and revolution. And you know, my dad said that, , after JFK was assassinated like that, he said that was the first time I felt like America was like, something's wrong. And like, it just, you know, it's funny cuz after that, like punk and heavy metal came out, like the nation was angry, you know, So, it's interesting.

Yeah. A lot timing is big thing. Yeah. A lot of response. A lot of music responded to the cold war and, there's a lot of great music, revolutionary music that came about. It was a, it was a time of revolution rebellion, and trying to make a better world.

And I think in a way this whole cult awareness network is also trying to do that. Like wake up from, wake up into a better world. And hopefully we can learn from the mistakes of our parents by not joining oppressive organizations or furthering violence or furthering extremism, you know, we'll just do, just do the best we can.

I think something beautiful that we have now is the internet and we don't have to resort to violence when we have our voice that we actually listen to each other. Yeah. I'll uh, I'll add another thing. Uh, I talk a lot about the stuff on TikTok actually. , well, you and I both know there's like tons of non-disclosure stuff happening.

so, yeah. But we'll see who actually finishes documentaries, like there's, we've been getting so many messages and calls and like, yeah, it's a, it's a rat race, isn't it? Like every other, every other day. There's Hey, would you like to have an interview about the mood? Yeah. So just, you know, word to the wise for anyone who gets hit up like that, it is exciting.

It's like, whoa, someone wants to listen to this story, then I'm trying to get out, but just be careful, like be critical, like reach out to people who have been, you know, contacted before some are better than others. Some of them might, you know, have some shady stuff in their contracts. So just FYI, if you're, if you're a whistleblower, um, Teddy, ho.com, you go to like the press page.

You'll see more of my like whistleblower stuff. Yeah. Cool. Well, I look forward to seeing more documentaries from you, more interviews from you, more podcasts. Um, it was awesome to have you on the show to talk about the whole range of things we talked about and, um, yeah. Yeah. I like, I like, I liked it. It was interesting.

Thank you for your insight. And um, yeah, just talking with me this afternoon. Oh, totally. Yeah. I mean, just knowing you, when you were a little kid, I feel like there's like a connection there. Like, it almost feels like Camillia, you know, we share a similar pass, so. We were under the same roof. yeah. In a crappy dorm building, but you know, it is what it's.

Yeah. Wow. I just remember like a huge picture of rubber moon. It was like, yes, this is a Moony dorm. Like there's no hiding it. Oh, sorry. You guys had to go through that. That's oh my God. It's so funny. Yeah, let's see. Okay. I just, I wanna see if I, oh, oh, I have one more question. Can I ask you one more question?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm not, I'm gonna wait. One more question is I looked up to you and all the elders, you were the elder type. You were, you know, who like, I, I formed my life after you. Like I saw you go to STF. I saw a few others go to STF. Like that was the life course, but , it was so easy for me to see an established life course.

I knew I had to, you know, camp sunrise, STF. Yeah. Workshops at UTS, like service, repeat all these things. I watched you. Who did you look up to? Or how did that even start? Okay. Well being in the Terrytown community. Yeah. It was a lot of the older families. So we had like Youngs, you know, older brother. That's how you say older brother in Korean.

We called them like John Young or Tom young, you know, like, which is weird, but, um, yeah. Uh, No, it was just the older second generation in the area. Um, there was one family, the park family who moved from LA to, , Terrytown Irvington in New York, um, in maybe the late eighties. And, um, it was, it was interesting because we were all kind of, you know, the kids who, uh, we knew about the moons and we just stuck with the program.

And, you know, some of the oldest , they were seen as perfect children. There were no restrictions yet on because they had certain expectations of how they were gonna be. So a lot of their parents let them watch MTV and get into music and culture and, you know, and it's like, they made restrictions later.

But, so I looked up to these kids as like, whoa, they're cool. They're in with the culture. And they dress and these brands and stuff like that, the Youngs, you know, like my oldest brother was part of that group and they had like church bands and stuff like that. They were really into music. They all seemed, yeah.

Like I don't, even when they were in Korea, they got into like metal, they were listening to iron maiden and mega death. And I'm like, what is this? So confused. But, you know, it was like, it was okay to be cultured back then. So I looked up to them and, , again like this, the park family that moved there, there was like, you know, a few of the, um, the, the brothers, they were, they were older.

They were all like chill, you know, like they all seemed, I was like, oh, maybe LA is more chill than Westchester, which is like, where old money from New York city moves. You know, like, it's funny, I've learned over the years that, um, you know, living in New York city now on and off in my adulthood, people like sear at Westchester, cuz they're like, oh, they're just like cold uptight people with money.

And I'm like, oh thank God. I just thought that's how the world was on top of being in a cult. So , I just thought everyone was right. Yeah. Like everywhere else. We like west Chester, uh, you know, not to say all of west Chester, like I, but I think particularly, you know, because the moons lived in super expensive place in these fanciest states.

Like we were around those type of people and I just, you know, nothing to relate with with anyone around them. So again, more coercion to like, you know, confide in the church community. Um, but yeah, the park, I think because the park family was, maybe higher up the latter, like their dad earned the, the status of being called tiger park, you know, which is like where, um, yeah, it's it's moon appoint.

He pointed the name tiger to like the special like super members who were like leaders and uh, all Korean . So I thought, I thought bohi park and tiger park were the same person. They're different. Oh, yeah, they're different. Oh fuck. Okay. Yeah. And it's sad because that father of that park family, , I don't know his real name, but, , he died after doing like a 40 day fast.

So yeah, I know. That's I think he did too many of 'em or something for the listener 40 day fast. We literally mean no eating or drinking food. No eating any food for 40 straight days. Yeah. Like, no, he probably drank water, but yeah, with yeah, drank water. Okay. Yeah. So, but like, I think, because they were like more of a prominent family, they were, you know, they were more chill.

They were like, Hey, what a, you know, like let's all be cool. And they were actually like genuinely nice people. Like I really, we all looked up to the parks. Like they were just the laid back family. They weren't looking over their shoulder as much. One of the parks, one of the older brothers, he talked back to Sean Moon when he tried to chastise a, you know, uh, them at the DC church.

Yeah. Ask Elgin about this. There's a story where they just went on and on and he's like, you know, it's not that bad or you, you don't have to be like this. I was like, ha I wasn't there. But I was trying to get him on the falling out podcast just to tell that story. But he was like, nah, he's like, he doesn't wanna go back.

You know, there not, not everyone is in investigative, like us, like a majority of people just wanna move on and you know, but there's like a cluster of us who talk about everything, but anyway. Right. Yeah. And it's mostly see the parks. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. No. I mean, and it's great. It's great. Cuz the, the few of us that are investigative, we create the, the safe place for other people to figure out and you know, not internalize and repress, all this stuff it's real really happened.

This is, this was our history. Yeah. Um, and it's funny cuz like I was like second generation leader in Seattle with my sister, you know, we were leading the programs there and the little workshops just to like, you know, we were kind of taking what we learned in New York and bringing it to like Seattle when we moved there.

But I also realized it stunted my growth. I think anyone who grew up in a church, uh, as a kid where they had to be in a leadership position, it's like, then you can't explore and you you're the uptight one in other scenarios where like everyone's chill and having a good time or maybe they're having drinks or you know, at a party.

And you're the one who's like, you know, just it's like Patty SIM Cox from Greece, if you remember yeah. Who's like the super like, Hey, did everyone put in their photos for the yearbook on the deadline? You know, like I was like, I was coming, becoming too much like that. So after I was that leader guy in high school, I was like, man, I gotta like now have an adolescence.

Like I don't wanna go back to that. Like ever, like I don't want to be responsible for kids anymore. But, you know, now, so like everything I do, like online or whatever, and talking with people, like I try not to play that role, but I think I kind of do, I don't know. I, I, I try to be as hands off as possible and like, don't come to me with all your problems.

like, I mean, you can talk about it and stuff, but don't make me an older brother figure, I'll be a re a fellow adult reference, but I am not taking ownership of whatever. I'm not gonna be a young, I'm just gonna be a fellow adult. And like, you know, I guess what I'm saying is it's funny that I'm kind of feeling resonance with that position again.

I mean, there was such a strange power dynamic that shouldn't have never been given or placed on you. There's no room for play. There's no room for carefree development. I mean, it's, it's no child should be given that amount of responsibility. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and I'll, and I'll pass that up to, yeah.

It was nice to have older brothers, you know, or older brother figures in, uh, in Terrytown, uh, in a, when I was just so scared of going to school every day and having people find out I was a Moony who was associated with his biggest state, you know, in their town, that's like boo Radley, you know? So like, um, yeah.

Uh, it, and I think I just kind of naturally understood the value of that and that just kind of emanated, maybe just like in some ways. Yeah. So that's how our culture was formed. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Cause now it's just kind of like pathways in the brain that are just carved out and now it's just carved the path is just go to a Moony school, go to GPA.

Do your seven year course get blessed, like have families procreate. It's just carved. It's been carved for decades. Yeah. Yeah. It's like the older brothers, like suddenly we, they knew we had the most influence maybe. And a lot of us went as straight AKA grew up and read books. like, but yeah, it had experiences that are human.

Um, yeah. Uh, so, but yeah, no. And Elgin talks about this too. And I, I Al I've always felt this way about it too. Ever since I started doing activism is like, no, like we are gonna tell the younger generations, like what really happened and what the process, you know, it's like, I want to be able to tell people, like, you know, this is the things I've thought about, and this is what I've been through, but you know, it's always gonna be tainted with the church, church, parents and adults, like telling kids that, oh, they're trying to pull you away.

Like, like they used to tell me, and in order to like, make me not trust the world, make me a paranoid little bitch, you know? So, but like, yeah, no, it's natural. It's just organic. Like, uh, you can put whatever label you want on it, but you know, whatever is is, and you can't control that. So that's it. That's powerful.

It's so powerful. All right. Cool. All right, Teddy. That was it. That was my last burning question. Um, thank you so much for answering that as you have. Yeah. It's yeah. It fits a lot of perspective into things, so yeah, just appreciate all the work you're doing. Look forward to, you know, seeing more podcasts and interviews and documentaries with your face in them.

And if anybody wants to reach out to Teddy or you have any questions that you think Teddy could answer, cuz you're an older generation. You've seen things that people haven't seen.

Yeah. If I, if I get any questions from the listeners, I'll forward them to you or they can reach you personally, or, oh yeah. You can just write to, um, Teddy ho works@gmail.com. Cool. Yeah. Cool. And I wanna say of anybody that's a fan of falling out with Elgin Strait. Teddy is the graphic designer. He does all of the album covers.

Uh, so yeah. You'll you have seen his work before and also I'll, I'll just put in there that I also like, am like, oh, Elgen you should talk to this guy here. Let me hook you up. Yeah. So it's, it's a community effort also, but Elgin is like, you know, he's organizing everything. He, he does a lot of research. We all, we all help him because he's like the driving force.

He's the engine of that. So it's pretty awesome. Yeah. Yeah. You guys are, uh, I'm so glad he is getting some help. . So guys, you've had a couple hours of, uh, Teddy hose and myself. Um, I hope you've enjoyed this trip down memory lane in the many places it took you.

Um, if you have anything you wanna say, reach out to me at, uh, red robot on Instagram and Facebook, and if you wanna be part of the show message me too there. Um, so yeah, Teddy, I appreciate you. , we'll catch back up some other time. I'm sure. Mm-hmm yeah, absolutely. Uh, yeah, this was great. Yeah. I hope you have a I'm out of words.

Yeah. I hope you have a wonderful, wonderful week weekend. And thanks for, um, yeah, thanks for telling everybody. I used to be an enthusiastic kid that just wanted to show the world some cool art, cuz I feel like, yeah. Also that that never died. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, I mean, that's what I saw. That's that's one of the main things I was coming into this, like people should know how Renee was like minus like the, , growing up with all this craziness.

Yeah. Like just pure kid Renee. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. That's real cool. Yeah. All right, Teddy, I'll catch up with you again soon and uh, yeah. Take care of everybody. Take care of your mental. Whatever that looks like. And yeah, we'll talk again soon. All.