Gods Promise part II

God's Promise part II

[00:00:00] Hey everyone. Welcome back to the second part of God's promise on blessed child podcast. Today, you're going to hear more from Cathleen Bell, H K Ishida and I do hold these podcasts panels on zoom. And later on in the episode, we will be joined by Ryka Christopher, who you may remember from our previous episodes.

I want to give a gentle reminder that while you're listening to these stories, these are our unique perspectives and experiences. None of them are wrong. None of them are right, and we're not trying to push or prescribe any of these perspectives onto you. I just want to give a gentle reminder that if any of these stories or perspectives, ring true to you, I want you to dive deeper into your understanding of what sex means to you and what consent means to you because.

The point of this podcast is to give [00:01:00] people the tools and the language they need to deconstruct the unification church and reconstruct their life in the way that they want now. And I think an important part of doing that is to understand your own, um, worldview of things and we're unsubscribing a cult mentality and a hive mind.

And so I just want to give a nice little reminder and some support to all of the listeners out there that you don't have to agree with everything we say, you can have your own opinions. And that is okay. If something I say, or HK or Cathleen or Ryka resonates with you, you can keep that if you have.

Different pieces of all of our stories in your life. That's cool too. You can have so many different opinions and worldviews and perspectives and experiences and it's all. Okay. I just hope that listening to these stories kind of validates that for you, that [00:02:00] builds your confidence in your worldview, because it is your worldview and nobody else's, and we don't all have to share the same one.

So with that, let's dive deep into what consent means, further sex monsters in the UC and what sex looks like and what it means to each one of us. Like the power dynamics actually in the cult is like, it really is like the followers and the leaders. It's not the spouses and the partners and the parents and all that.

And, and so I really wanted to bring that up because I think that was a really, like, I just love how HK was sharing so openly and honestly, and thank you so much for, for sharing what you both have. I feel like that's so enlightening and there's so much information coming out of this conversation. And this is also, we were just talking about being wrong.

Cathlene: I'm happy to, I I'm actually quite comfortable with admitting that yeah, maybe I was wrong there. That [00:03:00] it's, it's a bit like what we see in elsewhere in our society of like setting, just like you said, setting people up to squabble over things that aren't the real issue at hand. And this is, although there are issues with like misogyny and the patriarchy, this.

Setting up guys against girls. Like they did it so many summer camps, right. That are separating us all the time. Instead of letting us just be human together, that's just right there. Right. Isn't that just a great example of, of getting, uh, dividing us when we could've just been together and the systematic, the systematic division that took place, um, Yeah, it did it hadn't it had very, yeah, right.

Renee: No, no, I, you're not wrong though, because that's that, that's a facade that we all believed in. It's like, oh yes. We're team building. And we're, trust-building when, in actuality we're pitting you guys against each other and we're, we're doing like the golden child syndrome and we're, you know, we're [00:04:00] creating a really toxic environment.

And, um, I just love what that we can like finally see through the smoke and mirrors. But I don't think that would have been possible if HK wasn't so honest with himself and like just their little stories. It's like, wow, we like this whole period of conversation. The last couple of episodes we've been really talking about.

The power dynamics between men and women, but actually it's like the cult holds the power. They that's what their whole goal was. Um, and so now we're taking it back through consent and autonomy and finding out what you like. And I love that. I feel like that's, so that's such a core as the church would say core value.

HK: I think when it comes to any kind of like huge system of control, like a call it's like, no one, no one gets autonomy. Everyone gets assigned a role. This is what boys are, this is what girls are. And like, it's, it can be relatively like arbitrary, just like, but just because they don't really give anybody any choice.

So let's sort of explore who they are, explore what it's like to actually be human and to feel all the feelings everyones given a very specific [00:05:00] role now I'm not going to like, ignore the fact that like, yes, men were put in oftentimes a position of power over women, you know, the whole subject object relationship kind of thing.

And like, it is just super, you know, patriarchal and all that kind of stuff. I'm not going to ignore that. And, but like at the same time, yeah. No one has given autonomy. You know, I think that church probably pumped out a ton of like super misogynistic man, just because like, that was the only role they were allowed to live.

You know? And I do think everybody's sort of comes somewhere on the spectrum kind of thing. Like, just so like they fit into that mold a little better. Some boys don't really fit into that mold, but that's kind of the only option they're given, you know, to be like a manly man. This is what it looks like.

But what I've learned is like, through my experience, it's like, oh, you know, I do enjoy sex life. It's like, but I'm not a sex monster. like thats not really me, its like I need emotional connection for me to feel comfortable enough to like, be intimate with somebody, you know? And that's like a real thing that I learned.rned.ned.ed.d.I, all I want to do is like, just like have sex with every single woman out there kind of thing..

Cathlene: Yeah. Thank you for saying that. I appreciate that. Cause even part of me was like, are you just rolling over a little bit too easily and not like defending your pole a little bit more, but yet I love how. This is, I've worked on this a lot in therapy. My therapist has really pounded this idea of like Cults are, all about binary, black and white thinking.

And here's the thing. Most life, the real actual life is shades of gray. And here we are, we've been, you know, kind of talking a bit about this binary of male and female. When now I think we all agreed. It's not a binary. It's, it's a whole, there's a whole spectrum of experience and the same is true for what we've been describing of that masculine need, like male, female subject object.

It's such a binary. When in fact we are all different. We all get to flex. Each of those parts of ourselves, we get to flex. I experienced that full spectrum. There's nothing [00:07:00] stopping us from doing so or from finding our spot, wherever that is. And that's for the personal, like that's a, been a really liberating experience for me.

HK: Like I think, you know, growing up, it was very much. Want to be a manly man and all being my friends were just like, oh, well, let's try to be men and camping and boy Scouts and fire and fireworks and, you know, boxing and you know, all this kind of stuff was very much, you know, that's what it means to be a man kind of thing.

And in my own journey to sort of figure out where I fit sort of on the spectrum of like sexuality, as well as like masculine tendencies kind of thing. Like one of the things, one of the most liberating things for me was like, kind of developed my relationship with sex. You know, it's like growing up, like the box that all the boys are put into, like we're all sex monsters kind of thing.

Like we can't control our urges and like, oh, we want it. And that might've been me like in middle school. Like I had no clue what was going on, but like, as I've sort of allowed myself to like, like, what do I actually like, or want my [00:08:00] relationship with sex to be kind of thing. And I was like, Terrified of like this sort of like sex monster that like lived inside of me, you know, I'm just like, oh, I'm probably like a really shitty human being, because like, this is what it means to be a man.

You know, this is what a man is. And I'm a man now my like a cys hetero man. So therefor cishetero man are all sex monsters. And so therefor Im a sex monster and I haven't even given myself a chance to like, learn who I am. And so I used to like, be overly concerned about this, like sex demon inside of me, that all I, all I want to do is like, just like have sex with every single woman out there kind of thing.

But what I've learned is like, through my experience, it's like, oh, you know, I do enjoy sex life. It's like, I'm not a sex monster. like thats not really me, its like Ineed emotional connection for me to feel comfortable enough to like, be intimate with somebody, you know? And that's like a real thing that I learned.

I was like, oh, I can't just do certain things. Like I need to have some sort of like emotional or [00:09:00] intellectual connection before. Yeah. I can feel comfortable with it's like, oh, At some point, I thought there was something like, oh, this is like a trauma response. And I need to get over this to get to my true self or whatever.

But after a while I was like, you know why this is just kind of be, this is kind of nice. Like maybe it would change in the future, but like, it's been cool to like give myself the freedom to fit somewhere on the spectrum between these two extremes, as opposed to being on this binary of like boys like this, or like this it's like, oh, what a concept?

You know? And I'm not just like saying it to like, feel good about myself. Like, oh, I'm not a sex monster, but at the same time, I like to know for sure. I, with a lot more confidence at least to be like, this is who I am actually. You know, when you were, when you were sharing your story about like pressuring your wife to have.

Renee: I feel like I was on the other spectrum of that in my blessing as well. But like on, in another way I enabled it. I was like, well, if we're having a fight, I'll just have sex with you and everything will be fine. Like, I didn't have a language. Yeah, no, I know it's terrible. But that's the other end of it.

Like, if you feel like you pressured what I actually [00:10:00] pressured my spouse, like if we were having, if we were in a bad place, emotionally, physically, mentally, and I didn't have the language to communicate, I was like, well, I know sex is like a way to connect. Right. But it's just physical and without the emotional and without the language it's empty.

Yeah. There's, there's two sides of this. So I felt like even when I got out of my blessing, I would use sex as a means of reconciliation or whatever it was. It wasn't even that I was there, it was performative. And like, it took a lot of unraveling to figure that out. I don't know who's listening, but I hope if you feel like you're doing this, like, you don't even have the words.

You don't even know why you're doing it, but it's this emotional emptiness and this act of like service. That you think you're doing, but like that's not what sex is about. Sex is what sex is about human connection, intimacy, emotional like awareness. And just really being in the moment. I think if you can practice being in the moment spiritually, mentally, physically, just like with another person, it's going to mean a whole lot more.

And then you'll be way more in tune with consent and yourself. [00:11:00] And so like, I think you have to, like, I'm subscribed to the fantasy of like true love. I think that's like consent with living in the moment is a good way to approach dating. If that makes sense. Tell me just kind of like, it's just like using sex in like a healthy way.

HK: Like we have all these from the, from the, from growing up in the call, like we have all these unhealthy associations with sex. Like either you use it to get your needs met. Like if you're feeling this way, this is what you do without any, like, I mean, this is. When you're raising children and both, both you and I don't have any children myself, but, but young children, it's like, when you feel angry, this is what you do.

And you teach your children tools. Well, I'm becoming a school psychologist. I know a little bit, but it's like, if you're feeling overwhelmed, then you learn to take a break. Like these are the tools that you're given. If you're feeling alone, if you're feeling hungry, if you're feeling thirsty, if you're feeling tired, these are the tools that you do.

And as a kid, you sort of like, okay, yeah, you, you sort of take them out without really reflecting on them because you're just a kid, you know? So you think about the ways that like [00:12:00] sex is given to us as a means to like meet some of our needs, you know, like, oh, you're having a fight with somebody. Then you go to this, oh, you're feeling horny.

There's another option. This is what you do. Like super given these associations with giving these tools without any reflection of whether or not it's healthy kind of thing. Now, nowadays, I feel like I'm learning. What does a healthy. Like, what is sex good for? Like, what is a healthy associate? What does it help?

How has it can be used as like a healthy tool to get certain needs met? I'm feeling a certain type of way. If I want a deeper connection with somebody, if I want to, you know, just I'm just horny and just, you know, it can kind of be whatever you want it to be, but there's a difference between it being a healthy practice versus an unhealthy practice.

And I use this metaphor one time, one, my friends, cause we were talking about this, but like I related to, like, if you're feeling hungry, some people drink coffee, you know what I mean? It kind of like, it addresses that need for them. They're feeling hungry. It's like I'm going to drink. And when I drink coffee, that need is met.

But in the long-term is that actually healthy [00:13:00] when your body really needs is nutrition, which is what your body really needs to sound like, good food. Not just like caffeine, just to, just to, just to get rid of the hunger feeling. So you try to learn like what a healthy associations with this feeling that you need.

Are you using coffee to like, to like skip over some stuff you actually need? Or is it, you know, and all these kinds of things. I try to think about things that way, as opposed to like. Yeah. Any other kinds of judgment system? I just think about, okay, what does a healthy way to use this tool versus an unhealthy way?

How do I feel after? Is it really addressing a thing? Do I feel fulfilled afterwards, but I feel good afterwards and kind of having that sort of reflective mindset when it comes to sex or literally anything really, I feel like this is such a good vocabulary, like a way to build your vocabulary. So if we could, um, could be used this practice and just say what sex is to us, like in our own context, just I can start.

Can I just add one late, last thing I think to help people like, just as a friendly reminder sex, wasn't even [00:14:00] just about meeting personal needs. Sec, there's this, all this rhetoric around absolute sex. It's like so much word salad about like, okay. Sex is somehow going to save the world and re spring God out of this prison that he somehow in.

Cathlene: What like th there was, there's so much pressure sexual type of, to be this, just this giant, like life or death saved the world thing. And so that, I think it's important that just to name that, that made things even more complicated because it wasn't, we, we barely had any sense of what our needs were and then, but yet those needs were there and then there's all this pressure.

So yeah, bringing it back to like, okay, here I am. Here's what I, here's what I need. Here's what brings me joy, like and connection. Yeah. I think what everythingHK you said was such a wonderful summary, but like, I just wanted to make sure that, that guy, before we take on your question, so there such an [00:15:00] extreme, like viewpoint on sex growing up in the, in the unification church, it's either like, well, for all visitors, there's a source of all evil kind of thing.

And I'm going back to like Adam and Eve where the fruit represented and stuff like that. So it's like, Sexist special, you know, it's not like, but like try to put like an accurate amount of value on it. You know what I mean? Like it is good. It's, it's, you know, it is special. It's important. It's also a risky thing for sure.

HK: And you gotta be smart about it, but it's not like, you know, humanity world crushing, you know, like the fate of humankind is in your hands kind of thing, or your eternal life in your hands. Like it's valuable. It's not this, it's not crazy, crazy. You know, the all high stakes stuff, like what's a, what's an appropriate amount of like, you know, value or anxiety or whatever to put on it.

Yeah, I think just like calling it what it is, is it it's a need like human connection is a need. Let's verify that. Oh yeah. Is here she joined? [00:16:00] Hello. Hi. Sorry. I'm so late. It's okay. We've talked about so much stuff. It's been incredible, really, really incredible. Just building a language, like how to resuscitate yourself post you see into having healthy relationships.

And, um, one of the antidotes to purity culture in the UC is learning about consent

Ryka: as well as . Um, I, I don't think I've fully learned about, I don't think I understood exactly what consent was until honestly like a few years ago. Like I'm 28 now. And like, it's interesting to hear other people like talk like you guys talk about like, I don't know the specific like doctrine of like the UC and like what sex exactly was spelled out when you guys were like teenagers, because like I left at 11, 12.

And so a lot of [00:17:00] like the rhetoric, I sort of like blocked out or like just didn't listen to, or like, and, and I'd have, you know, I had sex in high school and like, even though I like left so young and I was like, fuck all this. Like, I'm just gonna do what I want. It's still got to me because I still viewed sex in a very, like, I mean, I think a lot of this is society too, but this like very patriarchal sort of thing where it's like, ah, it's like me, I'm doing it for the guy to make sure his needs are met to make sure he.

Enjoying this. And it's like, it doesn't matter about me because like I'm there to perform. This is an act that I'm supposed to like, be like the porn star in or whatever. And like I'm supposed to like meet his expectations. And so like that definitely stayed with me until well into my early twenties. And I, you know, like I had different strings of toxic [00:18:00] guys, like, you know, who like clearly pushed, um, what consent was.

And it's like with me, not even knowing. And I think a lot of guys out there don't even know to, like, I think a lot of guys in the U S don't really fully understand what consent is. And I think that's what leads to a lot of these like problems and issues, because we don't talk about it. Oh, it's like not sexy to ask.

Do you want to have sex? Like somebody actually did say that to me, like a few months ago, he's like, oh, do you want to have sex? And I was like, huh. This is the first time I've ever actually did asked in my entire life. And I was like, this is refreshing. This is actually really nice in the next few years, especially I think also with like gen Z talking about this too, like this is going to become more of like a mainstream discourse.

And like a lot of people are going to, you know, change their outlook on how it is, but no, it needs to be [00:19:00] talked about. And like, you know, like you said in, it's not like such a huge deal, but it is sort of important, you know, in, I know that in the Netherlands, that the way that they have their sex education for like teenagers in school is like, sort of along those lines, you know, like it's not this like huge life-changing thing, but like, you want to think about it, you know, you don't want to just, you don't want to go and get blackout drunk and do it.

And they found that like teenagers in the Netherlands have a better first time. Like they have a better experience their first time and they know how to like negotiate, like condom use and like they know about consent. It's just the healthier for your mental wellbeing. Basically. That's what it comes down to like, is this healthy human behavior or is it not sorry?

That's my 2 cents.

I'm only like navigating. I was talking before about how like, looking into consent [00:20:00] can actually help a lot. It's like just like dating, like practical dating skills or whatever. Like, I'll be in a moment where having a really good time with a girl. And like in the past, it'd be like, oh, how do you know when you go in for the kiss?

HK: Like how you read the signs and like all the, you know, how do you know it, this like all the anxiety built into, like, how do you make a move? How do you know if it's the right time? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it's like, oh no, everybody has their own advice, things like that. But like with, with consent, it's just what you just ask.

Ryka: I got asked too.. That was the other thing that guy, like, who asked if I wanted to have that, he was like, can I kiss you? Oh my God. I can't even think of anything sexier. Honestly. Now, after 28 years of being open, being like assaulted all the time, like, it's like, oh

my gosh, it was so nice. It was so nice to be asked. Yeah. And not on the practice side. Like I know myself and a lot of [00:21:00] other men, like we, we stress out so much. You know that because it feels so there's like a communications, like a clarity, how do you navigate this? Just such an uncertain place, you know, we're in the car, you're walking around, blah, blah, blah.

And it's like, you know, dude, just, just ask if she wants to kiss you and is like, oh, that's it. And she says, yes, you do it. And then it's like, if she says, no, you don't kind of thing. And it's, it's such a relief of like for better or worse, men are sort of like expected to like carry so much of like the romantic load kind of thing, you know?

Um, not to say, you know, it's this hard journey or whatever. And so to have that sort of mindset just for me personally helped me made things so much easier. You don't need to try to read her mind. You can just ask that. I do want to say too, like, like you were saying, like a lot of women don't really know how to handle that script because they've never really received it before.

HK: There were times where like I was, had a great and with somebody. And I asked the question. She was like, oh, um, no, no. And then like later on we stopped [00:22:00] dating. We're just friends and we're talking, she was like, you know, HK, if you just went for it, I would have been about it. And I was like, oh, that's gross.

So like, it was funny, like even, you know, on the other side of it, like a lot of times women don't even know another script to go by and if you're not going by the script, they don't have to navigate it. She was like, oh, if asking for it, isn't sexy or whatever. But she told him later if he went for it, I would have been into it because like, that's not really the kind of, you know, at that point I was really grateful.

Like we're not dating anymore. Cause I was like, yeah, this is probably, isn't the thing I want to be involved with anyways. You know, I don't want to have to always be trying to read your mind and read the moment, you know, I just want to ask and you can just tell me and we can have a good time together.

Ryka: Yeah. That, and I think that like some of it is a societal thing. Women have been conditioned to be like, Oh, the guy's the dominant one. And like, he should like take leave. And if he doesn't do that, then like, I don't, I don't know what the it's like, he's a wimp or like he's, you know, like submissive or not, [00:23:00] not dominant enough.

And it's like the, we need to, that needs to change because if I want to go for it, then I shouldn't, I don't know, be seen as like this, I don't know, slot or for some SQS or like a whore or something like that. And, um, I used to, I used to definitely think like that, like I used to be like, oh, well, if he's not willing to like, take the lead or like, you know, go in for it first or like, sort of like make the rules up, then I'm not going to be into it.

And that, and the types of guys that I ended up. Going for when I was thinking that way we're guys who would just go in and do something, you know, like even like BDSM sort of stuff. And like, without asking, and I'd be like, oh, oh, like I didn't, I didn't ask to be slapped in the face, but he just went for it.

And like, that was not okay. I realized that after, [00:24:00] when, like it probably would have been much healthier for my own state of wellbeing. If he had asked first and been like, you know, can we do this? And then I could think about it, you know, and then give an answer. And it's like, I've found that, like I recently had, um, a dorm that I was seeing for a little while and like, Before we even met each other, we had like a video chat together and it was like setting up.

And then like we had a few emails back and forth with like a list of like, what was okay. Like, yes, no, like a hard, no, or like a, maybe if we negotiate it and like just a list of every single act that could possibly occur and like, and like safe words and things like that. And like what aftercare was going to be like.

And, um, and so when you know, things. When we were having sex when they did like, when like choking or something like that did come up, [00:25:00] that was harder. It's like I had pre-agreed to it, or it was like asked in the moment. And it was like, within this certain context that like has like a beginning. And like, there was an ending to like the scene.

And then afterwards there is aftercare where you like debrief and you talk to each other about it. And you're like, okay, well, how do you feel? Like, how did that go? Like, what do you think about this? And that was sort of like, it was mind blowing to me because I was like, oh, I can still get this sort of like, I don't know, being dominated sort of thing that I do sort of.

Maybe want and like a play sort of role-play sort of way, but at the same time it's safe. And I know that I'm not being taken advantage of. And it's like, I know that it's not, nothing's going to come out of nowhere and surprise me and I'm going to be like, wait, I didn't ask for this. So yeah, that I think has been very helpful.

I'm still navigating. I think we all are still on some level navigating. Like how, how does [00:26:00] sex and dating go? You know, I think a lot of humans are, but it's, we have like an extra layer of, of difficulty to it. Love. I love that we're talking about consent and you're laying out with clear path, like emails, written consent, like premeditated agreement, or you can go safe words.

I feel like those are all very good examples that we would have, we weren't raised with those kinds of concepts. So thank you for bringing that up. I think that's really important. Didn't moon, like lock Hawk Shahan and like a closet or something and house for like seven years or something like that.

Seven year course, she couldn't even talk to her own parents idealized. That was like our, that was our,

yeah. How do you, how do you hear that in speeches? And like, listen to that and grow up with that rhetoric. And then. And then like go into a world where you do need to have consent in order to not, you know, be taken advantage of [00:27:00] it's so hard. Yeah. I think you bring up a good double layer. It's like we grew up in a cult that had this patriarchal structure, but then it's also, society also reinforces that.

So it feels even more. Right. Um, so there's like so many layers to undo and yeah, I think it's really important to talk about what consent means and how to, how to get it first. You educate yourself as well, like on sex. I think sex education on Netflix is a great show for that. Educate yourself on the basic act of sex, but then you have to emotionally educate yourself on what you want and with like human connection, you need to figure out what you want to derive from the act of sex.

Um, and this goes back to the question I wanted to build the sex vocabulary, the consent vocabulary. What does sex mean to you? Can we go there? Okay, I'll go first. Yeah. Can I talk with, can I talk with you about what. so HK was saying there was power in sex, but it's not like world world shifting, [00:28:00] but it is important.

So an example for that is in a relationship I'm in a marriage with my husband, it's monogamous relationship. We have two kids, life gets in the way, and we, you know, we don't have that much time to bond and to meet each other and ground each other in our relationships so that our relationship is strong and our kids have a loving environment.

Renee: I think actually sex is the tool that we get when life is so busy, we use. We can set to sex to have a moment where we can ground and reconnect and meet each other in the middle. And that creates a really healthy environment for our kids to grow up in and also for us. So we use sex as like, it's like a really powerful tool to ground and to meet each other in such a busy and chaotic life.

And it's also a stress relief when there's just so much stress going on. And like, we just feel alone. Sex is an act as a tool to really connect in a deep way in such a short amount of time. So I think that's what sex is to me and [00:29:00] my relationship. Um, because we want to, we want to make the claim that sex is a need because it is, it's a human need.

It's also a tool. And I think just breaking it down to those things instead of some fat testicle, like way to create world peace and ideal families, like take it off. Like that's ridiculous. Let's just bring it back to reality so that we can be realistic about it. And then, and you can like learn to use it because it's just like having a hammer or.

But please don't sing that song. Oh my God.

If I had a hat,

she goes, I

hear that now. I haven't thought about that song in fricking years.

Oh gosh. I'm going to mute myself now.

[00:30:00] Cathlene: Who, who feels like they can actually follow that. So actually my last name is balanced. I have a hammer and I have a BA oh gosh. Um, I, I'm going to try and pull these back to the original question you were saying. Okay. What does sex mean to you? Um, for me, sex is an expression. Of caring and connection. And I treat the sex that I have with myself as to be as valid of an expression of that caring and connection from myself to myself, with myself.

Um, as I do with my partner and we both are very, we communicate quite openly, not in a lot of detail, but like we're both for, we are both big advocates of taking that time with us. We call it the best person ever. Like I'm going to have an evening with the [00:31:00] best person ever. And that doesn't mean like I just Jack off all night, but like, but like I was talking about earlier, but, um, taking that time to just be with myself and not just always, always, always with someone else, we found that that adds incredible amount of value to our relationship and a lot of like grounded-ness.

Um, and so yeah, sex is absolutely a part of that with me, with me and me with. And yeah, I love how it's not. I was thinking like, oh, is it a tool? Do we use it in any particular scenario or when either of us is feeling any particular way and for us, the answer is no, it's just, it's just an expression of connection and care.

Like it, it really is nothing more than that. It's, it's not, there's nothing. I can't think of anything in our relationship that is exclusively expressed via sex. It's just like, [00:32:00] it's kind of just like a medium, like I I'm an artist, you know, so I write or I paint or I sing and sex is just kind of another expression, like, like another, yeah.

Another, another art form. Yeah. I really, it feels as simple as, as that it, because we're also communicating and we're also doing this and that and, and. I I'm, I'm actually really grateful that sex is not the sole means by which anything is accomplished. In fact, it can, it can be, it can represent a lot of different things.

Yeah. There have been moments when it's been catharsis, um, because of what I experienced in my past. So I, I came from an experience of domestic violence and when I was, you know, when someone attempted to choke me, it was, it was definitely not consensual. Um, and so the experience, like there have been experiences in having sex where like, yeah, shit came up and I didn't see it coming, but it became this [00:33:00] opportunity in which we could, we could then talk about what just happened.

And as I was saying before, either it brings you closer or makes it clear that you shouldn't be together. In our case, it just brought us closer and closer together. And it was so incredibly healing to talk about those things and see him just like, well up with tears and like, I'm so sorry that you ever experienced that.

So. But on the other hand, sometimes we're just like, we're just happy and you're just sexist, just being happy. Um, or feeling like, oh, we miss each other so much because he, you know, doesn't see me as much when I'm with my kids, because we create that boundary of that's, you know, we spend time together, but it's not, I don't want him to suddenly just get in meshed into my life.

We're doing it very, very incrementally. So like, yeah, it's just, there's so many different flavors and, and messages that get shared or expressed in that action in that activity. Yeah. That's, that's it beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. I love [00:34:00] that you also included having sex with yourself. I think that's really important.

That's totally valid. And then not something we grew up with, but absolutely true. It can ground you with yourself and in such a meaningful way, and it'll teach you what you want to get. It's just like I was saying before, It became a tool by which I could learn. Oh gosh, I really like that. And, and either you can then learn to ask for it from other people and maybe they can give it to you and maybe they can, maybe you're the only one who can give that pleasure to that specific pleasure to yourself and learning to be okay with that is really cool.

Like, I don't need someone to meet that need. I got me, I love that. This is like, I feel like this is such an interesting question that I really haven't thought about. Honestly, it's, it's like a combination of like what, what it is versus like what society puts on it and what we've sort of put value on it.

And that's, I think about, you know, trying to be honest about what, what it means to [00:35:00] me or what I use it for. And I, and I recognize it in a lot of different ways. Like maybe what I do right now is I not necessarily be healthy or, or maybe it just is what it is or, you know, cause. In the past, like sex to me was like the ultimate act.

HK: I mean, that's kind of what it was for us growing up, you know what I mean? The whole like purity culture thing, this is supposed to be expression of everything, you know, all your value is attached to this thing. And so like, I would put a lot of my value into, into the act kind of thing. And so to get so much of my feeling of self worth from like someone willing to have sex with me, it's like, yeah.

I mean, I mean, it's like part of, I think a portion of that is like, okay, healthy even, you know what I mean, to feel like this is a vulnerable thing, like you're literally taking it in front of somebody. So if you have any like body issues or whatever, it's all out there, you know? Um, so it is a vulnerable act and, you know, but like [00:36:00] I would recognize that I would put a lot of my self worth into sex and it's like, okay.

So like, what is an appropriate amount of self worth to be putting into this act kind of thing? You know, it's like, I, I'm trying to figure out. At what point is it like getting to like a, like, not so unhealthy amount of value onto it? Um, so much sense of security, so much sense of like care. So much sense of like self-worth, you know, I think I do attach it still attach a lot of that to sex.

Um, like I feel like if I, I mean, COVID has been crazy too, cause like this increases feelings of isolation and I have this, I have this feeling that I'm still working through. And I talking about with my therapist too, about feeling pathetic, you know, and like, oh, HK, look at you. You're, you're single on new year's kind of thing.

You have nobody to like, even like kiss or something, nobody, you know, that kind of thing, like, look how prophetic you are kind of thing. And so definitely to sort of, when I am like sitting with somebody that I feel less prophetic, [00:37:00] you know, so it's like, okay, damn like this is, this is kind of part of what sex means to me for better or worse.

And I'm still working through that. And then we all, you know, we're all social beings and sexism need for us. It was like, okay, I shouldn't feel my static, but like, you know, it's like, so what does it, what does an appropriate amount of like self validated I can get from this act? So, yeah, I mean, I think right now for better or worse, I definitely still attach a bit of like self worth to it.

Um, it helps me feel better about myself. Um, makes me feel like I'm worthy of someone else's attention. Um, outside of that though, it's also like, I spend a lot of time just trying to like D mean it, I suppose in some way, like not hold it on such a pedestal. So like when it comes like masturbation, I just like, I just do it because it's like, fuck bucket.

Yeah. Like this is, I just, I'm just jerking off. Like it's not a big deal, you know what I mean? It's like an, I don't want to put it on this pedestal. Like, it's just, yeah. It's just, it's just turning off. It's just funny. That kind of thing, you know, or it's just, it is what it is and it's trying to go to sleep.

Um, so I don't know. [00:38:00] It's, it's, it's a very interesting journey to like figure it out. To kind of deconstruct, unpack, you know, all the weight that's been put on it and how much self worth I put on it. And like, what is a healthier amount of self worth to put on it? I feel like I could go on, but I'm like, so trying to navigate my head, but that's all I'll say for now.

Ryka: Um, mine's going to probably be very long. So when I first, what does sex mean to me? So when I first started having sex and like early teens, like 17, 16, 17, 18, you know, into my early twenties, it was, it did me, my self worth. And, but it was the opposite of like what you felt each Hayward's like the sex to me meant like, I like love this person, or I really care about this person.

And like, it's like the whole world, you know, it means everything it's like the ultimate. And so the more people that I had sex with, it was like the less, my worth became. [00:39:00] 'cause. It was like, oh, I'm adding numbers to my, whatever, my imaginary, like number, counter of the amount of people. And so it was like, it really did mess with my self worth.

Cause like, you know, once I had like four or five different partners, I was like, oh my God, what does that mean for myself worth? Like, I feel like garbage. I feel like, you know, like I don't have any worth anymore. And so, you know, with therapy have slowly like gotten away from that and more towards like, it's just fun.

It's sort of, it's play it's adult play. It's fun. And it doesn't have to be more than that. It can mean that I care about somebody, but it doesn't have to, it can just be because you know, why not? It's fun. It's let's just see what, you know, what this feels like. Or like let's try this out and. You know, what, what reaction does this bring about?

And [00:40:00] several months ago, I, um, was doing pelvic floor physical therapy. And I got into that because I been, I had this like for the longest time, um, it was painful to have sex too. And like it was on and off, but for the majority of the PA like majority of the time, it was like, it would start to hurt at some point.

And, um, I think a lot of that is also normal. Like not normal. I don't want to say normal, but it's common. A lot of women I've said this, like, I've heard this from so many people. And so I started seeing a pelvic floor, physical therapist, and she, you know, like throughout our sessions, one of the things that she showed me was how the pelvis.

Region is a muscle it's swole. It's comprised of many muscles. And so it's like a bowl [00:41:00] shaped, uh, well she showed me a female pelvis. Um, I don't know how this, like, I'm sure a male is the same, but like, I don't know how it like relates, but anyway, it's like this bowl that holds up like your bladder and like basically like everything, like all your guts and everything like that at the, like in your pelvis.

And there's so many different muscles that sort of come together at. The it like all comes together at like the base of, in between a female's vagina and our rectum. Like it comes together and like a ball there. And like a lot of times people hold their stress in their pelvis. And so just like your back muscles get tightened up and you need to go get a massage or you need to loosen them up with stretches and stuff like that.

Same thing happens with the pelvis muscles get like, and she even showed me manually like certain muscles. And she's like, do you feel that it's not it? And I was like, oh my God, this is exactly the way, like a knot on my [00:42:00] back fields. And so it's like, it's a muscle that needs to be stretched out. That needs to be exercise that needs to like be given, you know, tender, loving care, just like the rest of our muscles on our body, because otherwise they start to break down and they start to like get tightened up where they start to get knots in them.

And like, it doesn't feel good and your body just reacts badly to holding so much stress in one spot, you know? And, and so. Along with that was Kathleen. What you were saying, like masturbation is, is healthy. Like it's sorta, she was like, you, like, it's sort of something that you gotta do, like once a week or more because it's sort of like, at least for me, that's where I hold all my stress.

And if I don't masturbate, then the stress just piles up and then it gets painful. And like, this was extending into it. Wasn't just sex was painful. It was like, I didn't know what my core was. I wasn't using my court when I was doing like [00:43:00] planks or like other workouts. Like I just didn't know how to engage my core.

I didn't know how to like, engage my core to lift things up. I didn't know how to like, you know, like so many things that involve. I was having trouble like I'm paying, like, I just couldn't get my muscles to relax, even though I really needed to pee, I couldn't go. And like, people have like the opposite issue.

Like after they have kids, a lot of the times, like they can't hold their pen. And so like, there's all these like human problems, which are like disorders, medical problems that we face, which I think stem from us, like sort of dissociating from our pelvic region and like not exercising those muscles and not taking care of them and like, sort of just like ignoring their existence, I guess.

And so sex is definitely like a way to like exercise those muscles, you know, it's sort of like a exercise routine almost. So. Yeah, for now [00:44:00] I think I'm still definitely like, you know, I, I think I went from like one side of like, oh, sex. Means is only for people that I care about. And then I'm now like the pendulum swung all the way until the other side where it's like, oh, it's just like, just for play, like just to have fun.

And like, I don't want to care about the people that I have sex with. And so like, I'm trying to like find that like middle ground. I was like, how, how do I like, get my feelings involved in this and how do I get my emotions involved in this? But at the same time, try to just have fun with it and not, not put so much worth into it.

It's hard. It really is. And like, I think that's something that like is going to take me years and it's going to take therapy and it's going to take communication with like a lot of people and it's hard, but like, you know, what we're doing here helps on that. Uh, the beautiful spectrum. Everybody's put so many different [00:45:00] inputs into it and none of them are wrong.

Like not none of them are wrong. They're all correct. It's, it's a beautiful diversity that sex can mean so many different things. And just between the four of us having so many different meanings, of course the unification churches are wrong. You can't get everybody on the same page. There shouldn't be there's beauty in it.

Meaning something different to you. Um, and embrace that you don't have. We don't all have to be on this like conveyor belt of like absolute sex. Fuck that. Yeah. Means whatever it is. It's diverse. I love how all of you use it as a tool and verify it as a need physically, emotionally, spiritually, socially.

There's so many different ways to use sex. It's just amazing. That's awesome. I think that's kind of the point. Cause the church definitely told us is like, there's only one definition for there's only one need for it. And it's like to be able to kind of define in your own way or whatever it needs to allow it to change and grow and evolve is like, kind of like the [00:46:00] point, like you get the autonomy to do that now, you know, and that's, and that's really what healthy stuff, you know, the healthy way to go about it.

I did read, you know, somewhere and one of these books that I read, like psychology books that like sex is, you know, the way that adults play. And it's like, you look at how kids play and like playing is necessary for kids, you know, their social development and like bonding and like their own mental wellbeing.

And like it's been shown like people who don't have sex, do they do have more stress that like, it is a stress reduction, you know, a stress reducer sex as a way to like sexual wellbeing is very connected to mental wellbeing. And so it is something that like, I think. Isn't like this, I don't know. Holy thing.

It's like a human, like it's eating, sleeping shelter, drinking water, having set, like these are a need, you know, and [00:47:00] like staying psychology myself. Like the essence of play is sort of like a low stakes, you know, clear boundaries. Like what makes click, what makes play play is like, there's like a sandbox.

HK: We all agreed with the boundaries. Are we all agree? What's, what's allowed, what's not allowed. And within this sandbox we can do all these things. You know what I mean? And it's not like, like you give a kid like my baby. Her parents just gave her like a kitchen set, like a cute little toy kitchen set. And I was like, there's like a knife in there.

And it was like boiling water and I was kind of stuff. And it's like, cool. You can do these things without it. It's a low stakes game. You're not going to accidentally cut yourself. You can figure things out. You can play around, you can explore things. You can just have fun, you know, as long as you play with this and you don't actually grab a knife or anything like that, you can explore these different things.

And like, and that's the essence for even adults. It's nice to have a place where you can, there's not, it's not high stakes. You can explore, explore yourself what you like, what you don't like, you know, there's established boundaries, established rules. And so [00:48:00] there's, as long as we play by the rules, we can play together nicely.

And, and that's kind of like the psychological need to be able to explore without high stakes. You know, obviously unification church though. It's like, it's the most insane stakes out there possible. So there's no room for play. There's no room for just seeing what you like, what you don't like, because like literally the world or your eternal life.

It was on your shoulders and that's like the exact opposite of plague. The stakes are so insanely high and that's just not meeting our psychological need to like, explore with low stakes. Right. It's, self-limiting, it's an extremely self-limiting belief system. I mean, how else was he going to control? So many people like sexist, such an easy way to control massive because it speaks to a vulnerability.

Everybody has a need and a vulnerability, or kind of the same thing now. And to feel connection to procreate, even to like to get those chemicals following, to feel like, you know, [00:49:00] you're not alone, you know, it just feeds into that very thing. And again, once again, if you do all these things, then your needs will be better.

And, but in doing those things, you lose control and that's like kinda the whole point. Wow. Well, we're, we're rounding two hours. I think that's a really good place to stop. I actually had like seven different bullet points and we've only touched like three of them. Um, I know it's incredible. Would you, I mean, I want to put out a couple other bullet points out there to invite other people to join this panel with such a diverse, uh, group today of people that have been bused have been on the late team that were in and out of the church at a young age or older age.

Renee: Um, I love it. Thank you guys for taking so much time out of your day for joining us on this conversation. I really think a lot of people aren't going to get, I mean, there's just so many different perspectives. Is there anything you guys want to say? I know we didn't even introduce who you were. Uh, let's take a few minutes to wrap up, [00:50:00] introduce yourself.

Uh, where can you be? Where can you be contacted? Would you be open to talking more about the subject and, um, anything you want to say? Really? I just wanna open up the floor. We'll kind of round rapid, rapid down if that's okay. Yeah, sure. I can start. Um, so gosh, it's funny the end with an introduction. Okay.

Cathlene: So those of you who have heard this voice, that sounds like this randomly dropping in the songs that she's writing. So my name's Kathleen Bell, um, and I, uh, I am at the time of this recording. I am in Switzerland and the French speaking region. Um, and I'm a mom of two. I work with refugees and migrants to help them integrate into society through entrepreneurship.

And, um, and I'm an artist and I am also a podcast host. I have had the delight of having Renee on my own podcast, which is called create and perfect anyway, which explores [00:51:00] a lot of like deconstruction from a creativity standpoint, specifically around the idea of, of perfectionism. Um, and she's trying to break that thing down of like, come on guys, you don't have to be perfect to be creative.

You can just go and do the thing. And I love how. That kind of came up in this conversation as well. Let's just be ourselves and just do our best and cool stuff. We'll come out of it naturally. That's exactly what I am to explore in the podcast. So that's creating. Perfect. Anyway, you can also find me on Instagram at Kathleen C a T H L E N E underscore sublimated, because that's what I like to do in life supplement is to take something that is painful or complicated or hard and turn it into something beautiful.

And that's what I want to spend the rest of my life doing. And I'm really glad that that conversations like this are a part of that. So, yeah, and also I it's worth mentioning. I was, since we're talking on the subject dating, I am in a partnership [00:52:00] with an amazing person that's been over a year and, um, we didn't, we finally didn't get to green flags, I guess we can get to that next time.

HK: But, um, yeah, I love how, the reasons why my relationship works. It just feels like this entire conversation was. Uh, an expression of why that works, then it's the kind of relationship that I just wish for everyone. Okay. I can introduce myself next. Uh, my name is HK Ishita, uh, previously Hong cook Stevens, which is a whole nother topic.

Um, what is it? I'm 32 years old this year. I'm turning 33. I currently live in Oakland, California. I, um, used to live in the DC, Maryland, Virginia area, the DMV until I moved to the bay area about four years ago. Um, it's C used to be a proud youth minister used to direct [00:53:00] camps, things like that. Now I am starting to become a school psychologist to try to use those powers for the sake of good, my own, you know, power.

Um, what is it? I am technically single, struggling through it. Having lots of moments of joy, lots of moments of despair and everything in between trying to embrace all the emotions. Yeah, let's see.

I'm pretty private, but you can friend request me on Instagram, HK dot cheetah. That's all it is. HK dot Ishi. And I'll bet you and see if I want to be friends with you. And if you can, if you want to talk to me, that's all I say, man, we celebrate those here. I think for sure. That's something, I want another conversation.

That's like, yeah. I try to choose my friends a little more carefully now versus anybody I see at, at camp.

[00:54:00] Ryka: Um, okay. So I just want to first say. I, it makes me so happy when I see other people who have left the church who are now like in, I don't know, areas of like psychology or like mental health, you know, using their past experiences to sort of help other people in like different areas of their life. And it's just like, because that's what I'm doing.

And like, I'm just so happy to see it. You all are in your own ways and it's just. It's so nice to see, especially with the amount of problems the world has. So I, my name is Rika and Rica, Christopher. I was actually on Elgin's podcast, falling out. Um, I talked about being an offering child there and my leaving the church at a very young age.

Let's see, I'm in the Boston area now. I, um, am a [00:55:00] researcher. So, um, I do mental health research. And so currently I'm like, Sort of at my dream job, um, I'm working for Boston children's hospital and Harvard medical school. Um, I'm doing work on, um, oh and university of Illinois, Chicago. Um, part-time and I'm doing work on like rehabilitation and reintegration of, um, women and children who are being repatriated back from formerly, um, Islamic state controlled territories.

Um, and then there's a whole bunch of other research that like ties into that into like violence prevention and like extremism prevention. And then also with reintegration and like social connection of, you know, how do you, how do you rehabilitate people who have been radicalized and like gone into like these extreme groups and how do you like keep society healthy so [00:56:00] that these sort of radical groups don't like create, you know, and, and pull people.

Anyway. So that's, that's my research area, very much overlaps with how I was raised and, um, the church. And so I have been pretty like open and out there. Let you can follow me on Instagram. It's princess Rica. I have a Twitter feature, Dr. Rica, but you can just type in my name though, really on, on Google scholar or something.

And it'll probably pop up to get my email or whatever I hope to like make a career out of researching and understanding more about this topic, because I definitely think it's this coercive control that we all faced growing up. And this manipulation it's, it's literally everywhere from sex trafficking and pimps using this.

Recruiters from ISIS and other terrorist organizations, you know, and, and this is important and it [00:57:00] needs to be talked about, and we need to like deconstruct and dissect it to figure it out. Wow. I love that. I like Kathleen started with the sub roommates. We're all taking something ugly and our past experiences and trying to turn it into something beautiful, not just for ourselves, but to like evil.

Society and then evolve our species. You know, it's not just like surviving and making it, but it's like also contributing and making the world a better place. So the next generation doesn't have to grow up in what we did. And I think that's what we're doing with Jessie's and our voices on this podcast and getting our stories out there.

Renee: So thank you guys for doing that. We'll drop a little teaser. So we only covered, so we, we covered so little. And yet we could expand so much. So there's so much conversation around each one of these topics, but as a teaser to see if even you want to come back to talk about these things, I'm going to read off some of the things I gathered from a Instagram poll.

I have a few hundred followers. A lot of [00:58:00] them are ex Moonies or Moonies. And so it's kind of a platform in which people can voice their opinions. And so I want to use this, this chance on this blessed child podcast too, to give them a voice because there's so many people out there that haven't found their voice yet.

So let's give them a chance. I'll just read off some of the questions that they had. So one of the questions was how did you all learn the idea that dating is sinful? How did you start dating? One of the second ones is how did you start dating in your twenties to thirties? How did you give yourself the compassion for starting so late?

Another, how do you find balance between living for yourself and your. This one I thought was very interesting. How do you deal with the past of the person you are dating now? What are green flags? We kind of covered that. Um, how did you accept your first love trauma? How are you rewriting? What successful relationships look like?

Do you approach [00:59:00] dating? Well, thinking of every partner as a future spouse was anyone in this group pressured to accept a heteronormative relationship as a queer person. If so, how did they navigate the situation? How do you feel worthy these days? How do you encourage yourself to keep going on your own path, even though, you know, your parents will never support you and how do you establish boundaries?

Those are just some of the questions I got on my Instagram poll, and I think every single one of those deserves a conversation. And if those are something you're interested in, I think we could keep going later into this podcast and into this. Also, can we, sorry, can we throw in, because this topic I'm very passionate about like monogamous and polyamorous, like relationships and like how, you know, we've been brought up in like this very monogamous heteronormative culture and like, how do you branch out from that?

And like, what does it mean to be polyamorous? And what does it mean [01:00:00] to date multiple people? Yeah, I, if anybody's listening and it's sparked with a little bit of inspiration and wants to come on this podcast on a zoom, either anonymous or just any of these topics really resonate with you, message me@reneethomasart@yahoo.com or find me on Facebook or Instagram at ren robot.

And we will organize some of the juiciest posts post see topics you have ever heard. Um, yeah. So thank you all for being such amazing resources. Everybody here is just in such a good job. Thank y'all. And if any of these topics resonate with you, we can get another chance to talk on them, or if you want to add anything to the conversation that we had today, uh, I look forward to speaking with you all in the future.

Looking forward to it. Yeah. Cool. Cool. So we can, all right. And there you have it guys, a whole range of different perspectives [01:01:00] on what sex means to us. I am so excited to tackle the rest of these subjects and topics there so much more to explore. If you were one of the people that shared with me on Instagram, some of your interests and some of your comments.

Well, thank you so much for trusting me with your words and your curiosity. I look forward to exploring more of this later on in the season. I hope that this purity culture talk has really helped you create a vocabulary for deconstructing your unique experience, either in the unification church or some other extreme theology with purity, culture and misogyny at its center, as always take care of yourself, take it at your own pace.

And we will talk again soon.