Blessed Child Podcast Transcripts

Purity Culture in the UC: God's Promise

[00:00:00] Cathlene: You don't get it. You've got it all wrong. What's wrong with me? What's wrong with you? Your one to talk, the pot calling the kettle black,let me explain why your the one that's wrong

Renee: Hey everyone. Welcome to another week on Blessed child podcast. This week is the long awaited episode on dating posts purity culture in the UC. This topic is extremely difficult to talk about because we have to admit our faults and we have to admit where we messed up, but in doing so we can help others validate their experience with growing up in the unification church and undo.

The harm that has been done by connecting and talking about our experiences because the system is broken, the system is flawed and it's creating a lot of problems. [00:01:00] So I commend these brave souls for coming on to Blessed child podcast, to speak about our mistakes and what we've learned from them and how to move forward and how to pull each other out of a dark place.

It is so awesome that Cathlene Bell and HK Ishida could come onto my podcast in the background. Singing here is Cathlene Bell and you can find more of her music. She has a podcast called create imperfect Anyway. Let's just dive right into it. Here we go.

it starts with being Wrong" welcome to the Blessed Child podcast. I'm so excited. We have two former wait team members, three former wait team members on the show today. Um, we were just talking about how I know the [00:02:00] topic today is about dating, but just for this topic in of itself, part of the journey for me of like healing and figuring out who I am is trying to recognize what parts of my experience in the unification church was really me.

Hk: And how do I use those forces for like myself or the way I want to use note for a more positive, more empowering thing for others and the wait team, which was like sexual education, performing arts group that would like promote abstinence a lot. For me, that was a big venue to, to discover and practice dancing and like dancing for me is like one of my core sources of community now.

And so like that in many of its many ways, like kind of saved me and other part of it was like this sort of altruistic wanting to make a difference in the world. And I still want to do that, but just to like, not so much of an idealistic kind of thing and like an unhelpful message. Um, but like that part still in there.

So like now, now I'm an intern to be a school psychologist and it's like, okay, it's, still want to work with kiddos, but [00:03:00] let's actually have more empowering messages versus like such a limiting one that the wait team had. Okay, that makes sense. A hundred percent. Do you relate as like, have you gone through a similar journey with like art and performing because you danced to right.

Renee: Well, yeah, I did do break dancing on the wait team but I have no coordination, but yeah, no, I, I know if you've listened to this show, uh, in the beginning, I was like really angry and had a lot of processing to do. Actually, when I talked to you, Kathleen was one of the first times it was like, we don't have to throw out every.

Like you can still save some of the kimchi from the buffet. What that was from the unification church was like connection and friendship and global understanding and like these really deep and meaningful relationships. And so I started that. I think that was the turning point for me to be like, wait, there's some things I can, I can still hold onto and that I can still integrate into who I am.

And so just doing these podcasts is helping me, um, reclaim that. Like you could go to cheongpyeong and meet somebody from all over the world at one, one dinner [00:04:00] table. That was really awesome. And I think I want to hold that. So like HK is taking his dancing and like the community from, from the wait team and reaching out to the youth and I'm taking the global connection and just like really getting to know people on a, on a personal level.

I love that. I love that we can take that and take that from the church and keep it in our daily life. I think that's really. Me too. Yeah. I completely resonate with, I'm glad that this is coming up because even thinking about dating subconsciously W.A.I.T was in the back. Cause I think so my, where I was placed, the kind of persona that I clicked into in, in ways, especially when I was doing it full time, um, for a gap year was the singer.

Cathlene: I was the singer. I was the singer songwriter and I, you know, I'd always be the one up in front of the mic, you know, with my original songs and the songs for your co-writing. And I was thinking in prep for this, um, for this episode about the messages that we'd sent and how. How [00:05:00] they ended up getting so deeply rooted into my understanding of what partnership and the creation of a partnership ought to be.

Uh, and it's really interesting now to look back at them and be like, huh, okay. That's why you were so clingy. That's why you're so codependent, not just because that one song lyric, but because of everything that, you know, everything beneath that piece of the iceberg. And so now when I write my own music and I give myself permission to feel angry, I give myself permission to say, I never knew it was possible to say, thank you and fuck you to the same person like to write those kinds of lyrics.

Um, and to learn that you can be really pissed at how someone treated you, but, uh, still take the good and move and like, let it push you forward. It's like, I am really grateful that weight gave me the opportunity to start honing that craft. Like, like you guys with dance. And now, but now I get to do it on my own terms and I love how the [00:06:00] same is true for relationship building or, you know, dating in this case.

Renee: Yeah, I know our topic is dating and I was thinking about it and I'm like, that's such a tabloid subject. You know, it sounds like, Ooh, like 51st dates. How did you do to do, to like what to wear? No, I was thinking about it and I know it sounds terrible, but actually at the root of that is human relationships and healthy connections and healthy relationships.

And I was thinking about it at its core and the unification church. I've heard people say it in passing, but I really want to dive into that in the unification church. It was a toxic environment in which codependency and narcissism ran rampant. And so coming out of that structure, that church structure where, you know, you always have to report something forward.

You have to get permission with who to marry. You have to always seek approval from others. That that shaped me to be very susceptible to, uh, I guess codependent relationships after I [00:07:00] got out. And I didn't realize, cause I, that was normal for me. So I didn't realize that I was, you know, being a chameleon in my friendships, just for approval and also like food and shelter and basic survival things.

Um, and I didn't really know who I was. So when you, when you take that foundation and then try to have like an intimate relationship, be it dating or just friendship, it's very difficult. To, to find out, you know, what your boundaries are and what your preferences are, what you actually like in a friendship, what you actually need or what you cherish.

So those are, those are kind of the things I want to talk about today. And I hope that's not too, too much for y'all. I just wanted to take away the, like the Hollywood version of dating. Cause like I know it sounds all fun, but actually there's, there's a lot of deep rooted issues that I think we need to talk about it.

Let's go for it. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Cause like I didn't it alone. I think you guys probably did this alone too. It's like detoxing from this. [00:08:00] I found myself. I remember it was a shocking moment when I found out that, oh my like this revelation, like I'm, I'm codependent, I'm extremely codependent. It was, it was almost like life-changing that?

I still remember the moment. Um, I was in the kitchen and I was just going through my relationships in my head with my family, with my community, with my friends. I think another failed relationship had happened. Um, and I was just running through it and I was like, how is this? How is this pattern? What is this pattern?

Hk: And it hit me. Oh, I'm codependent. Yeah. Did you guys have any, um, anything you want to say about that? Sure. For me, the message we're given to as we're growing up is that like, you don't need to, what is it like invest or care about how you look, you don't really need to invest, you know, being an independent person, like all the focus was on getting eventually arranged marriages and getting batched and getting blessed and getting married.

And so. You don't like, [00:09:00] we sort of skipped over a bunch of personal development for the sake of just like, oh, why would you do that? You're just going to get married anyways. You can get assigned somebody and like for better or worse. My spouse when I was matched and blessed all of my personal decisions about how I looked and how I liked a lot of big decisions, it was just like, whatever you want kind of thing.

You know? So I never really ever asked myself, you know, what does this make me feel good to make me feel like I'm looking good? Does this make me feel attractive. It was like, whatever, you know, I just put all that power onto her and she didn't really want it either. It was just kind of put on our account then because of the structure we lived in and grew up in, when she and I separated and I was out there all by myself.

I remember when my first feelings like looking in the mirror was like, oh my God, I feel ugly. You know, now that this one, I put all my personal worth, of feeling attractive onto this other person, kind of whatever they wanted me to be. And now that I'm by myself, I feel so I don't know who I am. I feel ugly.

I was [00:10:00] looking through my wardrobe. I was like, I don't like any of my clothes kind of thing. And I got through that and that's a whole other story that maybe I'll share later, but like, um, any girl that gave me any level of like attention after that, I just immediately was like obsessed over them kind of thing.

And I definitely recognize this pattern. I was like, why am I like this? And I, you know, part of me realized, yeah, I just got all my self valid, all my validation from other people. Same time someone would giveyou a little bit, you know, I would associate that with like, oh, you're like somebody really need to get involved with kind of thing.

I, for the most part survived that stage grew out of it. Um, but definitely that codependency thing was like, just so dependent on people to make me feel any level of like worthiness was like really unhealthy. And, uh, I got up, I had like a little bit of self-awareness about that while my close friends were helping me, like kind of work through that and other things.

Renee: Yeah, I can go into more detail, but it definitely, probably love that you brought up that very, um, solid example about like clothing [00:11:00] and appearance and you are beautiful, just so you know,

um, I had one of the same experiences when my blessing was falling apart. Um, I got a thousand dollars from one of my parents. I could barely afford food, clothing and rent, but instead of like paying rent or paying for food, I spent all of it on clothes that I thought my spouse would like so that they wouldn't leave me.

And it was bizarre. I was just turning into a chameleon like, oh, I'll wear this. I don't really like it, but he will like it. So, so, um, that's like an example like that you weren't alone in that. I definitely, and it's amazing that you bring that up. I wonder if other people have experienced that, that trying to form and fit into somebody else's standards for approval.

Uh, even it's just so shallow and physical it's it's like, of course that's not going to save a relationship, but we were taught, you know, don't have standards. Don't, don't have expectations. [00:12:00] Don't worry about yourself, always for the sake of others, always. So, so really what, what is it sounds beautiful and it sounds really idealistic, but the dark and ugly side of that is that you have somebody that doesn't have a sense of self worth and is not prioritizing their needs.

And, um, it's a very dangerous situation. So we both came out of that. Thank God we both came out of that, but that was a real place. And I just want to validate that, that that is a real place that this, this structure and the UC, um, bred us to be like, I don't know if Kathleen maybe can relate, oh yes. My question, like the reason why I'm getting, just sitting back and listening to you guys is I'm also like paging through my life and I'm just like, oh my God, where do I even start?

Cathlene: Because I know this came up during our episode together, Renee, but, um, the, the one just you and I did, but I told you about how, when I went to the matching. Deliberately made myself something of a blank slate. Um, even though, I [00:13:00] mean, I, I literally went with the wait team to my matching. Um, so there was definitely like, I performed in front of like all these potential matches such a weird experience.

Um, uh, so clearly there was a, there was a person there, like there was someone, someone showed up. Um, but at the same time, career-wise what I wanted life to look like without accepting the piece on creativity. I was just like, I can be anything you want me to be, I'll be in the next room doing, doing art projects with them and it's just going to be so great.

And I can, I like, so I didn't bring any sense of like a counter proposal. There was no counter proposal. It was about making it work. Right. That's and that stayed with me for so long, even after. When I chose to separate, I also checked into the nearest domestic violence shelter. Like it was, it was bad. [00:14:00] Um, and that was an incredible act of self validation that I have.

I deserve better. I've had enough. Um, but even in the process of beginning today, I can, I could see up until pretty recently that, yeah, that sense of Bend me, shape me, any way you want me, it took time for that to shed. And I'm really, really glad that that. Significantly less than the relationship I'm in now.

Um, and I know it's because of how much work I did before getting into that relationship. But even like the little flings before that, it was like, he's talking to me. Oh my God, I'm so excited. I wanted it. So I think it takes time. I also like to think these things, these things are spirals, you know, you, you figure it out on a certain level and then you level up and you have to deal with it in another way.

Um, I like, cause I know, cause while I was dating, I was, I was also job searching. And that, that like, who do you [00:15:00] want me to be? Vibe was so hard. And I was like, I feel like a fricking prostitute. No, because I felt like I had been a stay-at-home mom for eight years. And then boom, here you are. You're in a foreign country.

You're still learning the language, but you still need to get a job ready, set, go. And it was terrifying. I was like, and of course not to mention COVID so it was like really tricky time to find work, but that codependent energy. So that codependentenergy was super strong of like any, just take me please. And the ironic thing.

No, I mean like the moral of the story was like the moment I started being myself, boom, boom. Like people, the people who got me talked about me and then they, I got a job offer sent to my email, like, Hey, would you like to apply for this job in this nonprofit, working with refugees and migrants. And it has been, it has been like just fitting like a glove and the same with the relationship that I'm in.

So it's like. That codependent [00:16:00] energy was so it took so much work to shed. I, and it's a whole conversation in itself of like, what did, what does it take to get from there to here? I'm happy to dig in, but like long story short, you asked me to, I resonate. Hell yeah.

Renee: Oh, wow. Okay. So what, what resonates from that story is like codependent energy. I feel like it's, it's, they're honestly linked with survival energy and I mean, yes, because you're, you will do whatever, like you said, just to get by. But also I want to like highlight that the reason you went to the blessing with the matching, with your ..W.A.I.T team, your crew, um, this abstinence preaching crew, and then got matched to somebody that you moved to a new country, learn a new language.

The rhetoric under that is world peace. You don't do something that's nuts unless you're thinking that this is for the survival of humanity. So like in a way we were [00:17:00] on like a broad spectrum of survival mode because we had the fate of humankind given to us. That was the mind control tactic that put us in this mode where you, we could be so codependent and, and always in survival mode, because we were told we were going to save humankind.

We, we, and, and by that, like our mission to save humankind is just world peace. And how do you get world peace? Don't be you be whoever everybody else needs you to be whoever the parasites. Yeah. That's kind of the mind, the mind, fuck. I've done an undo that is so backwards. It's so backwards. I find way more peace.

Hk: I see myself being a chameleon for everybody else. And that was for me, like, that was a huge thing that I had to get over to like associating such a huge responsibility of saving the world with like my romantic life. Like you said, her and I like growing up, you know, we were making families for world [00:18:00] peace.

And so like this relationships, family, romantic stuff, sex was all about like saving the world. And so who am I to be selfish and have like preferences or like have any kind of like individual, like, you know, selfish desire when like the world is at stake here kind of thing, you know, future generations, you know, all this kind of stuff.

And so for me, it's like, it took a while for me to feel like, okay, to have preferences. I mean, Cathlene, you talked about this earlier. We were told, like, be a blank. And that was constantly reinforced. How can you make it work with like literally anybody? How can you make it work with the most unattractive, annoying, sometimes abusive, even like ignore all the red flags kind of thing.

How can you make it work? That was like drilled in us as constantly because the world is at stake, there's no room for selfishness kind of thing for any kind of selfish preference. And like, for me to be like, okay, yes, it's good to like, you know, address my like, internalize, like racism or homophobia or stuff like that.

It's [00:19:00] okay to have preferences of like a certain kind of personality type, even a certain type of look, even a certain type of, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Like it's okay to do that. That to me was such a hard concept to like finally accept, for example, like I'll be going on dates and I would be so focused on like making it work even on like a first date kind of thing.

How can I make this person have a good time? I can make sure that they're happy, you know? And then afterwards our. I almost feel like I was in a disassociated state, like what just happened? Like, do I even like this person, did I have a good time? I have no clue. And slowly, like, I'm just, I'm like, I've been learning to like, it's okay to like, not like something.

You know, it's okay to like, not make it work. It's okay to be anything, anything, you know, just try to see it for what it is, you know, did you have a good time educate you don't need to try to save the world through your dating life anymore kind of thing. And that's been an interesting journey. That's just allowed me to also be more independent and to also know who I am and just kind of be [00:20:00] in my own power and even empower the people kind of thing just without trying.

This is totally unnecessary association between my romantic life and saving the frigging world. Ah, I mean, that's such a powerful message for young children. I mean, we were told that since the time we were born and if the community's preaching that and every youth group and every political movement that we do, like even the white team is focused around that message that your romantic life will lead to world peace.

You're going to believe it. We were told that from a young age, we need to flip the rhetoric. Cause like it's such a, it was such a powerful message that if you know, you live for the sake of others, it's, it sounds, sounds good. But actually in reality, having preferences when coming up with people that are, that can be on your side and in your corner and on your team with the same goal and the same, same type of, you know, end game in mind, we're just even having fun pleasure, like.

That leads to more peace. Like how can we drive that message home [00:21:00] that like the unification church, their message is all wrong. There's so many of us that have come out of it. I don't know if anybody's succeeded in that message. How can you have peace with yourself? If you don't even know who you are?

Like, how can you have peace if you're just compensating, your whole life is just compensation. Like, is that peace or is that just compliance? Yeah. Compliance and coping. So many coping mechanisms, like as, as you guys are talking. What's coming up for me is like, oh my God, peace. We were looking at the wrong kind of piece the whole time, this whole, this like world peace story that we were sold, uh, was all about.

If you, if you peel back the veneer, it was chaos. It was really chaotic. And it was a piece on one person's very specific terms into, for a very small people's group, the group of people's benefit. Um, but what you guys are describing is the, is [00:22:00] the opposite. It's okay. Having, being at peace with yourself and watching what happens when, and, and letting like constructing your life around that sense of like, okay, this is who I am.

This is what peace looks like for me. I'm just doing my thing. Not hurting anybody else along the way, or as little as possible, life gets so much better. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah, right. Like we're all happier. It's yeah. We were just focusing on the wrong kind of piece, in my opinion. Yeah. I mean, world peace. We were focused on every external piece, but what about inner peace?

Like in my relationship now I can do whatever I want and I'm not worried my husband's going to hate me or judge me for looking a certain way or being a certain way because we're compatible. That's a big, that's a big word that was never really talk compatibility. That was a big word. Like if this whole, the whole church was focused on marriage, that was one factor that was never considered was [00:23:00] compatibility.

And I think that it did. Yeah. I mean, it's so nice to have compatibility. You don't have to walk on eggshells. You can rely on somebody, you can trust somebody. You can, they can be your safety and your safe place when you're feeling weak or when you just need a hug. Like, I don't know if that's a healthy relationship for me.

Absolutely. And not living constantly, like you're waiting for the, I described like, okay, that the happiness that I was promised in my, in my marriage was kind of like, you knew that there was a package in the mail and it was going to get to your doorstep of this, like happiness, this happy family. And you're like, you're watching the trends, the tracking.

And you're like, okay, it's supposed to it's on its way. They, they said it's on its way. And then years go by and you're like, they said it was coming, where is it? And I mean, that's, that is the, that's like the gut, like that stomach dropping, [00:24:00] heartbreaking feeling that I felt, which was like, okay, if you do all the right things, well, that's what you're going to get.

That's that's that's you promise to do this? You're going to get this in return. That's what's God's promise. And. That was never delivered and it was really heartbreaking, but yeah, but everything that we were just talking about before, like that creating that piece and sell inside myself, the package got delivered.

Like I'm so happy now, but that's like, yeah, it's that peace inside yourself. It's no one else could have done that. Sorry. I'm yeah. Anyway, I think about all this stuff and like, you know, a cult is really all about systems of control and they kind of dangle a carrot in front of you and just to where they weigh you down with something.

And I know that like the association between associating your romantic life and sex with like world peace, I think was just, you know, it's another, there's another system of control, you know, how do you get people to do what you want? Well, [00:25:00] let me make up this sort of like doomsday scenario that if you don't do this, the world's going to fall apart.

Look at, you know, the reason why America is falling apart is because of the free sex movement kind of thing, you know, it's like, and so they kind of create this like boogeyman sort of scary. And to, you know, just kind of being compliant kind of thing. And I just like, well, if that's not going to work through, how about if you do this world peace, like, oh my God, you know, some people start to freak out because they have that weight.

I think Sam goes for, um, if you just do these things, you'll be happy kind of thing, something I've learned like while I've just been out in the outside world or whatever, it's actually like, no one knows what the hell they're doing. So to me, what that shows is that like, everybody's kind of hoping for the, the get rich quick kind of tactic.

Everyone's hoping for like, like it's everybody out there is vulnerable to feeling lonely, to like, not knowing what they're doing. How do I get love? You know, whether or not your ammonia doesn't matter. And so like, [00:26:00] another method of control is like, oh, you're looking for this thing. Well, if you just follow my teachings, then you'll be happy.

And if you're not. Happy yet, because you're not following my teachings, like, like with enough discipline. And so it's just another method of control and they sort of, you know, in any, any sort of like sociopathic narcissist or like whole charismatic co-leader or like kind of use these tactics, anybody, even in like a single, like domestic relationship kind of thing that turns into like an abusive, toxic one, they just kind of, they find whatever your, whatever vulnerability is going to work for them to get control over you.

And for a lot, a lot, a lot of people it's, they're like, you know, romantic life, fear of isolation, for some people it's fear of world peace. They want to make the world a better place. And I'm like, well, if you just do this, then you'll get whatever you want. You know? And for many, many people, and I even think about like my parents' stories, for example, like why they joined a lot of this has to do with like isolation and like afraid of being [00:27:00] single or like afraid of not having love or afraid of not having a really good functioning.

You know what I mean? They're like, oh, they found somebody that said, if you just follow these steps, you'll have everything you want. Sign me up kind of thing. So I just see all this stuff in the context of systems of control. They grabbed one of the most vulnerable things for all people. And it's just the fear of isolation and wanting love.

They were just using that scare tactic. It was like, well, if you date in the outside world, then you're going to fall in love and dah, dah, dah, dah, and do all these romantic things. That was so easy to come by because you just met that guy at the bar. Well, once he gets you and uses you, he's just going to go to somebody else and do the same thing.

And it's like, that is so manipulative. It's like, so if you follow our teachings and do the bashing and blessing, then you're guaranteed a heteronormative monogamous, permanent relationship that you can invest all your eggs, then it's going to be awesome. And it's like, that is a complete lie. Let's like all of us have [00:28:00] been blessed and matched and it didn't work.

I could have been better off meeting somebody at a bar then going into the blessing. And there was no promise. There's no guarantee. Like you said, it's a method of control. It's a scare tactic. There is a lot of shame use. There's a lot of us and them going on. It's definitely like a cultic fantasy and it's messed up and, and we believe that for so long and.

Yeah. And the fear, the fear is go ahead, Kathleen. Oh, I was just going to put a small disclaimer that like what I tend to say when I'm explaining my relationship, my previous things to other people is that like this w I I'm inclined to believe that the way we met people was no better or worse necessarily then than meeting someone at a bar or on, you know, on Tinder or what have you, that it doesn't really matter how you meet someone it's about what you do in the relationship.

And unfortunately, because so many of us were, were not taught what we needed to have successful relationships. Well, they didn't [00:29:00] work out, but I do know of a couple relationships who met literally from like fathers matching, you know, the 200 people in the room. You and you, um, who are doing pretty, pretty.

Okay. But why not? Because it's not because of the Jewish teachings it's because about what they chose to bring into the relationship. So I just feel. I like to, to just keep that little bit of balance, because we may have listeners who, whether they're in or out and they have met their life partner because of these, you know, because of these systems.

And I, I certainly don't want listeners to feel like we're shaming, those who have those relationships. That's, that's all I wanted to say. So I love that. I do love that because yeah, there's no, there's no guarantee a hundred percent, but if you did find yourself in a situation where you are compatible with your partner, that's on you, that's a hundred percent on you.

And if you're the listener that, that it has found compatibility. Awesome. You know, and Kathy, I think that's a really good [00:30:00] point because it's kind of like, you want to give credit to where it's due. And I think what happens a lot of times is like, you know, like the church will say stuff like, if it wasn't for us, you wouldn't be born.

If it wasn't for us, you wouldn't have met your spouse, which has a happy with. And so you kind of like that gives us some sort of like ownership over. Kind of thing, but like, let's be, let's be really honest here. Like, why is that relationship successful? You know, it's not because of some, like you guys, like y'all say with like meeting, meeting through a matching ceremony and being sent out at the bar, it's all serendipitous.

Like it's just, it's all chance. You know what I mean? What really makes it successful is the effort put in afterwards. So it's like, if you met somebody at a bar, would you be like, oh my God, I, now I tied to the bar. No, it's like, you know what really let's, let's put, let's put, let's give credit where it's due.

It's to y'all's effort also like, you know, compatibility and chemistry and that kind of stuff. Like it is, it is a real thing. It's like, there are people in this life that have worked out of what than other people. And so some of that is also serendipitous kind of thing too, [00:31:00] you know? So it's, there's a lot of chance and also a lot of effort just to make sure we give it to the right.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. How can anybody else take, take credit for your relationship? Let's lay that that's ridiculous. No, yeah, no institution or no other person, including your parents, which was like a huge overstep in the unification church, took credit for a successful relationship ship, successful life. Y'all worry.

You always are what? You're only 5%. Every God is 95. So in place of God, sometimes your parents would take, take credit. Sometimes your central figure would take credit. Sometimes your national leader, national Messiah, it was always this strange power dynamic. And so you have to undo that, that thinking because it's absolutely not true.

So then I haven't thought about that 95, 5% ratio for a very long time yet. That's definitely something you're drilling us to like, to like, [00:32:00] sort of, I think like it's such a. The ratio is so up to, so whatever that, like, I think that once again, it's, it's another effort I think, to like, sort of latch onto like, okay, like claim some of y'all's relationship happiness, because this is because of this, you know what I mean?

Just try to scrape it as much as they could just make you feel like you owe them more than you actually do back to dating. Um, I have a few questions. I took a poll on the Instagram. Uh, there were so many questions. One of them was how was codependency built into the UC and we kind of discuss that another was what are green flags.

And I think we've discussed that maybe feeling safety in a relationship, being able to be yourself without too much judgment or shame. Does that sound like a green flag, a universal green flag? Yes. Yes or, well, would you be, I feel like before we dive into green flags, can we talk a little bit about like, [00:33:00] One might be a good time to get into dating.

I dunno, because I feel like I don't want to put the cart for me, being able to even identify the green flags for what they are or aren't, or might be, or might not be. Um, the prerequisite to that to me is like what you're doing when you aren't actively dating when you aren't. I mean, cause you know, you can meet people anytime, but like what are the, what do you do in those moments when you're alone in the room, you close the door and it's just you and you.

I mean, does anyone like object if we, if we go there first? Cause I feel like it's, I think that's a super powerful foundation. Yeah. This stuff is really intricate. So I think it's a good idea to take things, chronological share chronological. Who are we like? Yeah. You know, later you're in a wedding dress like Jesus,

I'm not sure I know what the chronology is, [00:34:00] but like I just go ahead, go ahead. Let's expand it from just dating to just having healthy relationships. Because even just having healthy relationships in friendship settings was, was hard coming out of the unification church. I mean everything. Everything was up with subject to question, but I feel like things started to kind of make, take shape in my life when I started to really work on my relationship with myself.

So when I left my blessing, it was, I was really a mixed bag. Like on the one hand I was starting to feel this like really intense energy of like, I deserve so much better. Like this is, this is not okay. W um, what happened. Um, but it still took time to really sit with the idea of like, I deserve to have a good relationship.

It still took some time to really, really believe that. And so, yeah, before dating, I, I, [00:35:00] I did want to take some time to be like, okay, who am I? What do I like? What do I want? And yeah, I don't know, I did it a couple of times around, like before my first post divorce dating, I did this to a certain extent, but I did it way more after my first breakup.

That was a really interesting relationship because it was a like first love kind of feeling. I actually had it for the first time, like after an 11 year marriage picking someone for the first time and be like, I actually feel good. I actually feel butterflies in this person. And then it didn't work out and I felt gutted like, this is horrible, but then, oh gosh.

Then when I realized that I, that that relationship was really, truly over, um, because I wasn't sure for a while I was hanging out, hanging in there for a while and then it became abundantly clear that it was over. It was like, well, [00:36:00] fuck. Okay. And. I decided, I remember this day where I had, I decided to myself, okay.

I want to learn how I just want to completely fall in love with myself before I have anything to do with another person. Um, and I remember like taking myself out on dates and like really just following my own lead of like, okay, what exactly like HK was saying, like, okay, what do I like, what do I feel like eating?

Where do I feel like going, what do I feel like wearing, like for myself. Um, and then like sitting on the beach and lighting a candle and doing art, just like by myself, for myself, just intentionally like scheduling those moments into my, my time and then slowly starting to be that person in front of other people.

Um, it took, yeah, in each instance it definitely was like several months, but I think it can, I mean, everyone's timeline is going to be different, [00:37:00] but yeah, for me, It was, it was, yeah, it was definitely an intentional effort of like several, several months. Um, and like also choose it. Yeah. I think disconnecting from a lot of the, a whole nother Kyla, another topic is like, what kind of content we consume?

Cause I feel like so many of the messages, it's not just cults who promote these really toxic ideas. Right. I think there are so many ideas like, yeah, so me and, and you know, my, my other half and I have, I have to spend my whole life finding this person. And what if they're not the one and choosing to slowly disconnect from that and start paying more attention to voices and content and resources that would say like, Hey, you are you're one and you get to become that person for yourself.

And you'll see, like becoming that, becoming the [00:38:00] one for yourself. It's like any other relationship, we'll just naturally feel the positive repercussions of that. So like that was something I, I chose pretty intentionally to do because I had had enough of people treating me like shit and noticing that I was treating myself like shit too.

And it was like, well, this, this isn't gonna work because how I treat myself as the standard to which other people will treat me so best be treating myself. Well, I guess I was, I, it was even more inflight because I'm a mom. I have two boys and I wanted them to see both, like I wanted them to see me be treated well, which of course took time.

Um, because moms are super sacrificial and that's another podcast episode. But like once I left their dad, I was determined to raise them in a way that they would never be. That they had, that they would have no chance of treating other women the way that their dad, they saw their dad treating me. Like it became, I was held [00:39:00] that I'm like, Aw, the cycle stops here.

And so I'm really pleased that like we're on that journey of, I'm quite sure that they're going to be good, good humans. So yeah, like that's, that's kind of what my journey looked like. It was, there was some pretty intentional decision making there of like, I'm going to treat myself well. And I'm slowly going to show people what that looks like.

And that definitely helps finding like better, better, healthier, safer relationships by and large. Yeah. That was an important step for me. That's super interesting. I feel like I did the opposite. Oh, cool. Let's give people options go. Like I'm I'm I feel like, I feel like your, your journey of like really like gating yourself and like getting really touch yourself is something I've only recently felt the need to get into.

Yeah. And I've been, I've been single for almost four years now. And I feel like I've been dating the whole time, honestly. Yeah. As I was [00:40:00] listening to you talk, I was like, man, I really did the opposite. I like dove and I, and my reason, like, and I was, I was thinking about like, like, should, should I just take this time to be by myself and stuff like that.

But I realized that the thing that was giving me so much anxiety was like, I had no clue how to navigate this place, this like being single kind of thing we were talking about earlier. Like, you know, the weight of like this fear and like, oh, if you go down this path, you'll be miserable and things like that.

And I remember having like literal, like panic attacks when me, me and my spouse, like when we were talking like, like really thinking about the idea of breaking up and separating, like I would like, like I would get super big knots in my stomach and a pain in my chest of just being like, I have no clue how to survive.

You know, and I'm just going to assume, like, just there's no life after this marriage kind of thing. And I just, I just felt was so and so like now that I was into that stage, I was just, I [00:41:00] had no clue. And so I immediately was like, I need to like, learn some practical skills and like, I have no clue how to do with any of my feelings.

I feel so incapable. So like, to me, that was my reason for like, I need to dive into this thing, like immediately, otherwise, like I just, every day was just so full of anxiety kind of thing. Um, and I try to the thing that helped me the most, the kind of mindset to have was just like, I'm just collecting data.

I'm just collecting information. You know what I mean? And I think that was really helpful because previously romance and all this kind of stuff was such a huge deal. Like it was the world, there was my entire life kind of thing, you know, that was my only. That was my relationship with like romantic relationships was like the sort of all or nothing sort of kind of things like, you know what, it's just dating.

It's just, it's just nothing. You know what I mean? It doesn't have to be anything shoes. You can be very, very little thing. So just get out there. There's a [00:42:00] cute girl. It is a girl that who's attractive and the conversations. Nice. Ask her if she wants to get coffee, like that's, that's, that's it kind of thing.

It doesn't, then don't overthink it kind of thing. To me that was. You got to get these skills or else and just, and then after you get these skills, then you can deal with the rest of whatever you need to do with kind of thing, you know? Cause I was just feeling so much anxiety from it. Go ahead. What, as you were talking, I was thinking to myself, oh my God.

He's relationship skill building. This is amazing. And you just, yeah. So you ended up confirming it with your own words. I didn't want to let yeah, for sure. And it's like, how you just like, how do you not make a big deal out of it? How do you like, so whenever you, maybe in the future, whenever you do want to pursue something or whatever, you have the skillset to do it.

And like, I got so many tips from like friends and I was reading articles online and like the biggest thing, and this is, this is a whole nother topic, but like I'm just going to do like the thing that really helped me out a lot, just like reflecting and reading a lot about what consent means. [00:43:00] That's a whole another topic, but like in my dating life or whatever the idea was that.

You know, to me, it was like, I had to sort of understand all these like hidden messages and like, get to know what she wants and you've got to, you know, just kind of read her mind and things like that. And just that you have to like, woo her, you have to convince her, you know, all this kind of stuff. That's the only way you're ever going to like, have sex.

Again, I was only ever going to be in a relationship to like, convince this person to like, love your shitty self or something like that, you know? But in reality, it's like when, when you sort of flip the script to like more of a consensual, like empowering, like empowering of the person to say yes or no kind of thing, and try to help them remove all the pressure so they can just tell what they want, you know?

And I was like, oh, okay. So like I can ask a girl out and it's okay if she says no kind of thing. Like, I don't have to like, wait and build up this, like to this big moment where I asked her on a date, like, cause she has to say yes, like, oh, you know, it's okay for her to say no, it was like, oh yeah. And I should be kind of like the whole point.

So like that sort of relieved a lot of the [00:44:00] pressure from it. You know, I don't have to. Whew. Somebody I can just ask and if they're down, you know, I don't have to read their mind. I don't have to convince them. I can just like ask them the question and they can just tell me, and then I'd be like, cool. I can work with that information.

You know, with that sort of consensual mindset, like empowering the person, like no HK, it's actually bad for you to try to like convince somebody, you know, to mean to like you, or like go on a date with you. You just, just, if you want to know what they want to go out through, you can just ask them. And if they say no, cool, you can talk and just be friends or whatever.

Like that was extremely helpful, you know, to like navigate that space, like, okay, how do you empower the other person? How do you remove pressure from the situation? So they can just kind of be in touch with what they want. They want the same thing. When you go on a date, if you don't know, and it's not a big deal.

And I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. Like that helps me not feel. So like, this is like a huge moment you can just ask. And if they say, no, it's fine. And like, that's great. They even want that. And that's like, helps. You know, that's like the direction [00:45:00] society should be moving anyways. Yeah. So like, For me, it was, I'd be like, when should I start dating?

And I was like, I need to get these skills immediately. And like the consent sort of like mindset, it really helped me like navigate that space to be like, okay, dating, doesn't have to be a big deal. It's like, she wants it and I want it. It's going to happen. It's not that we, neither of us want it. One of us doesn't want it.

It's not going to happen is as simple as that. Oh my God, this conversation is making me happy. You've just like unraveled the entire theology of the vacation church with the consent mindset. Can I just quote like air, like air quotes, the consent mindset. That is that wow. Consent is basically the antithesis of.

The Colt model, right? I mean, of course framed in the sense of like, oh, you, you have, you know, you have free will, you can leave whenever you want. Like, no one's stopping you. But I mean, if we look underneath that, there's an incredible amount of tactics being used to control and coerce and [00:46:00] manipulate and, and, and in prison people mentally.

And I, and I think this is also an important moment to talk a little bit about gender dynamic, like gender roles and that like the mindset that was passed on, especially in the Colt model, two men and two women. For those who identify as such, like I just like on behalf of women, all the women listeners, I think I'm probably not alone when I'm feeling like, thank God.

There's another dude out there who actually cares about consent. Thank God. It's not just my little boys. Like when I tell them about consent on a daily basis, like, oh my God, thank God. There are people out there who actually are practicing this and can be, uh, you know, that people are gonna, because people are paying attention.

Little kids are paying attention to that sort of thing. That's super important. But like, I, especially as a woman, I feel like growing up in the cult, we were taught [00:47:00] that we were all taught. Like I called it before the venue shaped me any way you want me, like, I'll be whatever you want me to be thing. But I think it was especially hard on women because we were taught like your husband is your second Messiah.

And like, you need to. The man is like the, the person in the house who's supposed to kind of make the decisions. Um, even if it was never, like really said, I mean, true father that your mother who was at your parents, but like, I mean, the deference always went to the, the dude and it's, it has taken a lot of unlearning to, to say like, oh yeah, okay.

Consent is I get to show up and bring who I want. And I don't get to force, like I don't force the other person to anything. They get to be them. I get to be me if we afford down. Cool. If we're not cool. So I feel like the step that you've taken, I mean, I'd love to hear your, how that experience was for you.

Did you feel like that you had that extra layer of this antithesis [00:48:00] of consent mindset that had to be shed as a guy. Or do you feel like it's just like, uh, yeah. I'm curious how, how that experience was. Uh, they're just like deconstructing that whole thing. Yeah. Like you feel like you had extra pressure as, um, as a guy in the unification church to not give a shit about.

Yeah. I just, honestly, it just, it was never really part of the conversation like that. The word wasn't even really in like my vocabulary kind of thing as, um, as like, yeah, I can definitely speak as like, I mean, and I like to, I like, I call myself like kind of, sort of like an ideal Moonee kind of thing.

Like I really ate this stuff up and I just think, you know, I think growing up as a kid, it was, there was sort of, I was a really obedient child. And so my parents, they didn't have to tell me twice. I followed all the rules kind of thing. And like, you know, the thing that, you're the thing that we're sold on is that, you know, like your, your wife's body is yours and [00:49:00] your body is your wife's kind of thing.

And. And yeah, like sex only happens within a marriage and a marriage and marriages are all arranged, you know? So like, so consent is never really part of the conversation. And there's like the responsibility of the woman responsibility of the man. And like, this is how you have, this is how you have sex and all that stuff.

That was all part of the conversation and definitely alive. It was sort of this like, um, oh man, uh, allow the period of culture kind of stuff too, is like, you know, like masturbation is, is, is, is you can't, you know, it's not loud and things like that, or it's really impure. And then, so it's like, and so it kind of sort of creates this, what we're talking about, codependency, like this relationship between like the husband and the wife, even as that it's the wife's responsibility to be her husband's sexual needs, you know?

And then it's like, the husband also gets that sort of perspective. Like I'm, I'm feeling horny. [00:50:00] Um, I'm not allowed to mask. And so my only outlet is my wife and that's kind of her role and period, that's it. So where does consent come into that like framework kind of thing? And I confess like, this is like one of my, like, like, I, I, this is, this is a pretty difficult topic, but like it's, you know, I've definitely for lack of ever like guilt trip to my, my ex and to like having excited to me, like very frequently, you know what I mean?

I mean, we've talked about she and I have talked about this and like, why that might say felt like for her. And she told me it was like, yeah, that's it. But like, she didn't really know how to process it in the moment because like that's where she grew up in. You know, she understands where I'm coming from at the same time, at the same time, what is this feeling of?

Like, I don't want to, but I have to. And it's like, so is it really like, this is, this is the larger scope of why, like, you know, arranged marriages with education churches. So like sexual abuse in general. And I mean, these kiddos, like. He's young children grew [00:51:00] up in this thing with no concept of like self or autonomy or sexual autonomy.

You slammed together in these arranged marriages. And like, all they know is this framework. They never even, like, I remember looking outside all my friends, like, you know, middle school, high school outside of the outside of church. Now they're dealing with all this stuff. And I just like never even bothered.

I was like, oh, I'm sad. Like y'all are worried about how y'all gonna get laid. Y'all are worried how you're going to get a girlfriend. I'm gonna get an arranged marriage. How do we even need to think about these things? I already have a framework, which is like, perfect. You know, all my needs are going to get met to this framework.

When you go into this framework, you know, you totally neglect self autonomy, sexual autonomy kind of thing. And you kind of, you, these, these children, and these are these people who grew up, you know, didn't have a choice. We were born into it into the situation where they're basically against each other.

They're sexually abusing each other and they don't know what the hell is going on. Kind of thing. I mean, I felt like. Yeah, like trauma, like now that I'm really digging into this stuff and I'm packing, I feel like a lot of like [00:52:00] guilt for like what I did and like my marriage and yeah. Like once I really sat with it and try to put myself in my shoes kind of thing, like how that must've felt to her.

Yeah. It's a,

yeah. I mean, I mean, I've, I've learned to kind of forgive myself because I didn't know better either, you know? And, um, it's tough. Like, I just imagine like the trauma that comes from that, you know what I mean? So like, I don't know, really sitting with that kind of feeling and like never, ever like wanting to go completely 180 of the direction now, like as all the, all my romantic relationships, I think about that a lot.

Like, okay. How can I go thinking about how it must have been like for her to be in a situation where it's just. No, no choice in the matter. And you have to do this stuff to like, cause that's what you're supposed to do. Right. This is what you're supposed to do. And just trying to go, how can I avoid [00:53:00] giving somebody that feeling, you know, 180 kind of thing.

There's a lot of like what I, yeah. I mean just cause I mean like, yeah, damn, that was a really tough phone call. She's not high when I was like, kind of looking into this stuff, you know, and like, wait a minute. I'm like no more and more. I thought about what consent means and boiling out a practical sense that gave me more skills as far as like navigating the dating world.

But in, it started to Dawn on me, like, oh, maybe this was just like her. So she had a conversation. I was like, what's this what's, this was this what it was like. And she was like, yeah, I was like, I'm so sorry. You know? And that was like a cheerful conversation and we're glad we had it. Um, but, uh, yeah, that was my gal said like consent is sort of like the antithesis of like.

And kind of cult is, you know, cults are all about control the choice system, some control. So where does consent fit into that model? It just doesn't. And so like learning this stuff is like learning a foreign language almost. It's just like, how do we talk like this? How do we [00:54:00] really acknowledge all the feelings a person can have?

How do we really empower the other person to like, you know, and then also like, this is the thing is I read this, it also addresses a core feeling within myself of like, does this person actually want to be with me? This is a person that actually loved me, you know, towards the end of my relationship, like in my marriage, I could just, it just felt like, I mean, we, we feel like each other was like a decent person, a good person who deserves love or whatever, but doesn't mean like, I need to give them, you know, my love or something like that.

And. And so like when those feelings started creeping in and like my codependency kind of thing as like, oh, she doesn't like me, then I'm like, what worse do I have? Kind of thing. But like the language of like consent and all this kind of stuff, it was like the person actually, we created this environment, this relationship where like, there isn't a lot of pressure.

We can communicate our feelings. It can be honest. It's okay to say, no, I totally validate that. You know, that kind of thing. But when they do choose to like, [00:55:00] be with you in any kind of capacity or do anything with you in any kind of capacity, you know, it's more honest. And it's like that, that is such an even more validating experience to be like, oh, you weren't pressured by, you know, like years it's like a whole upbringing go tripping dudes, like do this thing with me.

Like you actually want to do with me. And like that is, you know, speaks like it just validates much more of my, you know, fears and removes more my feelings that this person actually liked me to the extra one to do this stuff me. Yes. Like, oh, that's pretty cool. Yeah. No ideological gun pointed to their head.

It's the real thing. And there's yeah. The fact that you're, you're seeking to create relationships without the word that was coming to my mind, as you were talking, was enmeshment the sense of like, right. It was even in the ideology of like that, the point is to become one, right. But we're not supposed to become one.

We're supposed to be individuals who are interdependent, not codependent, not, and [00:56:00] not fully independent either. Like we get to want to be with each other. And wow. I have so many thoughts after what you said, but like the fact that you're approaching relationships after having con like had that conversation with your ex um, I think it's worth saying, I have no idea who's listening to this, but if there's anyone out there who like me has had a tough breakup, um, especially if it was a blessing.

A lot of us may not have ever heard our partners apologize for their behavior, for things that happen. It's really, really healing and really cool to hear that there's someone who was ready to do that, to apologize for how, for why things didn't work out to understand the other person's point of view.

And I think that's something that we can all benefit from with, regardless of where our relationships go from here on, in, like when we, when we screw up, because it's, when not, if I'm [00:57:00] choosing to, to ask for that feedback and to have that conversation of like, how was that for you? And then whether with that person, are you to yourself?

Like, okay, what can I take away from this situation and learn so that I can do better next time. That's huge. And we never got taught any of that. So like for a second time today, like, Mad props. That's huge. And I think that's just really, really cool. Really cool. Can I mention something like similarly related, but not entirely.

We were talking about art before I, I wrote a song about this idea of, I just remember feeling so fed up that like the people I had been in relationships with that I was dating or married to, um, had zero willingness to be wrong. Like it was unfathomable. And I was like, Ooh, [00:58:00] maybe I need to write a song that's like, sexy about being wrong.

Cause maybe then people will actually want to be wrong and think like, oh, it's this like intimate experience to be like, I really fucked up, what could I be doing differently? Um, but I did it. I wrote a song called wrong with me where it's like, yeah, it's very much this kind of call out to the universe of like, I really want to be with someone who's ready to do just that to, to, to own their shit.

And, and in the song I'm like saying to like, I want you to do this. I'm going to do it too. Like, I'm, I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not going to have to have a double standard here. Like yeah, if this relationship is going to work, we have to be willing to be wrong. And it's been so nice to be in a relationship where that happens all the time.

Like that, that those conversations become as normal as breathing, but it can't have that unless we do our part. And I just really want to like [00:59:00] celebrate you HK for what you are choosing to do, because not everybody makes that choice of that. It's tough. But yeah, it's tough. Like, I don't like showing up and being wrong either, but it's, but I found that.

Well being owning our shit, as well as celebrating who we are, like, it's two sides of the coin in my opinion. But like when we do it, people are going to do one of two things. They're either going to it's either going to bring you closer to each other or farther apart, either one is helpful information, like you were saying before, collecting data.

People don't like it. Or if people are unwilling to, to problem solve with me then, okay. You know, let's be nice to you guys. I have been so enlightening. You guys talked about how you started dating. You kind of went and learned to love yourself and you collected information with the mindset of consent. I think I landed somewhere in the middle, but along listening to you, [01:00:00] Kathleen, you were saying how it, it seems like the men in purity culture had the power, but it dawned on me as I was listening to HK speak that he didn't even have the power to choose his own clothing.

And I think there's this. Yeah. I think there's a smoke and mirrors that the cult gives it breeds discord and intentionally sets us up for failure so that we're at war with each other so that the real power is held by the institution. And that is the. Giving us direction. Whoa, what a conversation. Okay.

This is a good stopping point because the conversation goes on for another hour. So if you were interested in hearing the rest of this panel on dating posts, you see, please come back next week. As I drop the second half. If you feel that this conversation has helped you please reach out to the survivors that are speaking on my show.

Cathleen and Hk are extremely brave for being so open and honest about this really complex and difficult subject to talk about and to be honest about. So I will put their information in the show notes, please send them a message and [01:01:00] just let them know that they have been heard or specifically if anything, uh, really spoke with you, spoke to you and, and, and is helping you deconstruct the unification church and reconstruct your life now.

I think that is a really big part of healing. And it's a really big part of deconstructing as well as rebuilding to affirm other people and other survivors stories and to have some give and take is just so powerful. So here's a good opportunity there. Information is in the show notes, reach out as always.

I will talk with you guys again soon and take care of yourself. Bye.